Bible writers ignored their own principle

by venus 22 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • venus
    venus

    Bible gives a very beneficial principle when it states “too much talk” is problematic whereas “anyone who holds his tongue is prudent.” (Proverb 10:19) In harmony with this if Bible had given us just enough verses like this: “Remember God always and do everything as an offering to Him” (Ecclesiastes 12:1; Colossians 3:17), it could have kept itself invincible.

    Instead, it started to speak “too much” which often backfired. For example,

    1) Too much information on a too less important subject (such as woman’s menstruation) and yet too less information on too important subject such as creation which comes in just one sentence: God created “the mankind in His image.” (Genesis 1:27)

    2) Jesus was taken to a mountain top so that he and Satan could see “all the kingdoms of the earth” [which is in support of flat-earth belief], and Satan tried to tempt Jesus by offering them all in exchange of an act of worship to him. Such a temptation makes no sense because “all those kingdoms” were already belonged to God and to Jesus. (Proverbs 21:1; Daniel 4:17, 25, 35; Jeremiah 27:5-7; Ezekiel 7:24; Romans 13:1, 6; Ps 110:1; Mathew 22:42-45) Further, Jesus was a supernatural person as he is “the exact representation of God’s very being” (Hebrew 1:3) and “the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father” (John 1:18), hence is able to perform supernatural feats such as calming the storm, resurrecting the dead…etc. For such a person to come out victorious over Satan’s temptation provides no example for the ordinary people like us. [Like chicken find no example in peregrine falcon’s diving speed of 389 km/h]

    3) If all the wonders Jesus performed were to be written “even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written” (John 21:25) Now the question would arise: Why did the beneficiaries of all the miracles Jesus performed not come in support of him—not even one person when he was tried under false charges, or at least why did they not come in support of preaching work even after Jesus’ death? [especially in view of the fact that even criminals come in support of their human leader when he is in trouble]

  • smiddy
    smiddy

    Point 1 : I can almost concur with if man was made in GODS image. ,GOD is such a bloodthirsty being.No wonder mankinds history is so full of bloodshed.

    Point 2 :Proves the Bible unscientific and that it speaks out of both sides of its mouth and Jesus was no ordinary man as he was depicted to be.I dont see any examples of Adam having supernatural powers of any sort.

    Point 3 :Apart from no one coming in his defence because of all the miracles he was supposed to have performed , that statement in John 21:25 always amused me ,seriously ? with the amount of literature that is available to the average joe today and is increasing everyday as we speak ?

    So I agree with you venus ,good post

  • konceptual99
    konceptual99
    yet too less information on too important subject such as creation which comes in just one sentence: God created “the mankind in His image.” (Genesis 1:27)

    Well this is an example of Jehovah's skills in foretelling the future not being as ace we were led to believe since he didn't seem capable of working out that his creation would develop the craft of methodical scientific research and start undermining every aspect of Bible mythology.

    There is an oft used excuse the the Bible is not a work of science. No shit, Sherlock. If it was then perhaps the idea that God exists and cares for mankind could be more readily reconciled with the fact that the Bible does very little to enhance our understanding of the world around us one iota.

  • Vidiot
    Vidiot
    venus - "Bible writers ignored their own principle..."

    "...Do as I say, not as I do..."

  • David_Jay
    David_Jay

    For this to be so, the following would also have to be true:

    1. The Jews would have had to (from the very beginning of their existence) intend that their various religious texts, some written generations before Proverbs, be written for the purpose of being a single volume based on a single principle (as you mention) from Proverbs...which by the way was likely not composed until the beginning of the Second Temple era (the post-exile period).

    2. Jesus of Nazareth would have to have been accepted as the Messiah by Jews, and Jews would have to change their religion to believe there was such a being as Satan the Devil.

    3. Marcion of Sinope, a Christian bishop of the 2nd century, had never become a heretic.

    The idea that the Jews set out to write a single volume that never contradicts itself and that was to act as the basis for a religious creed was an idea developed mostly in America during the Second Great Awakening (1790-the 19th century). The idea you are proposing had been suggested in the 2nd century by the famous heretic Marcion, but it would be the New Religious Movements (NRMs) of the Second Great Awakening that would not merely revive it but reshape it to fit their ideals. The NRMs individually proclaimed themselves each to be the restoration of true Christianity, the end of times to be upon mankind, and the Bible as the ultimate form of revelation from God (the Latter Day Saints even went so far as to add a new further written authority).

    Even now the Jews don't actually see the Hebrew Scriptures as one book. We see them as three collections of different types of books. And we hadn't settled on making them one volume (which we now call the Tanakh) until the 6th century C.E. when the Masoretes began their work of developing a single and final authoritative text.

    Unless any of the writers had an idea that this would ever happen and on top of that knew of the "principle" you mention ahead of time (again you are talking about a proverb which didn't likely see light until after the time of Ezra), then the charge doesn't hold much weight. If they had intended to follow the principle you mention to make a single book, then your claim also falls flat. This would require that the very first Bible writers could foresee events and predict the composition of that post-exile principle. If that had that ability, then you would have a hard time arguing against anything they wrote, but believe me as a Jew when I say that such was never the case.

    The idea of a Bible canon was invented by a Gentile Christian bishop of the 2nd century known as Marcion of Sinope. Attracted to Gnostic ideas, Marcion made the first assemblage of holy books for the purpose of acting as proof-texts for his doctrines. His idea was that holy writ was the highest form of divine revelation and that religion can only be based on that (albeit when interpreted through a select group gifted with special insight that others could not possess). Marcion was excommunicated for his teachings that salvation was reliant upon Scripture.

    Finally, your argument only works if the original Jewish writers of Scripture intended the Christian scriptures to continue their tradition to create a single volume based on that "foreseen" principle. As you are aware, Jews neither accept Jesus as the Messiah not believe in Satan the Devil's existence. So adding that on to the original point raised doesn't work.

    This doesn't mean you don't have a case. What you are arguing very effectively against is the NRM view of Scripture. The Jehovah's Witnesses are one of these NRMs that grew from the Second Great Awakening era. Like the others, they too claim to be the restoration of true religion and that we are living in the last days. They claim they can rightly ignore the great religious authorities who have ties to antiquity by claiming that the Bible is the ultimate form of divine revelation. This is merely a resurrection of Marcionism that taught that ultimate knowledge was granted only to a select group that could decipher salvific instruction from a volume of select holy texts.

    It's not the Bible that's the problem. It's this Marcionic concept that the JW religion holds onto. To insist on Marcionism requires that Scripture was written for the purpose of being a single volume, that it cannot contradict itself, and that only those chosen to decipher the salvific message hidden inside can benefit from what is written (along with those who listen to their interpretations).

  • venus
    venus

    David_Jay

    1) Principle in Pro 10:19 is eternal, hence when it was recorded matters not.

    2) I was not aware of Marcionism. If my post somehow resembles it, then I am happy that many others felt it before.

    What really happened was this: When I wanted to leave the org, I wanted a confirmation from God that I am doing the right thing. Then I made this a subject of my prayer to God for many months, and one day answer came as though some thoughts were put into my mind. It was like saying to me: “Remember God always and do everything as an offering to Him” (which reminded me of Ecclesiastes 12:1; Colossians 3:17)—this is more than enough.” It meant all other details are of no use. What immediately came to my mind were those three which I brought in the OP

  • David_Jay
    David_Jay

    Your OP works, just not against Jewish Scripture, per se.

    And Jews never had Proverbs 10:19 in mind when they started composing their Scriptures (which started by oral transmission many millennia ago). Proverbs 10:19 was written around 516 B.C.E., after the Jews built the Second Temple.

    For it to have been eternal, Proverbs 10:19 would have to be the guiding principle for all of Judaism, known before the writing of the Torah. But it wasn't.

    Coming from the JW religion you might have a hard time understanding this at first, but these texts are not eternal. These principles haven't always existed, nor has Judaism ever held Proverbs 10:19 as anything particularly important.

    And, by the way, "eternal" means without beginning or end. "Everlasting" is the word you are looking for. That means to continue forever ONCE it comes into existence. Since Proverbs was not composed until after the Babylonian exile ended, none of its texts can be said to be guiding principles used for any of the narratives that came before it.

  • ttdtt
    ttdtt

    How about - ANY Talk about Menstruation - Emission - Fringes on skirts - Tattoos - Boiling the kid in the mothers milk - AND NOT MENTIONING THAT SLAVERY IS EVIL?

  • David_Jay
    David_Jay

    It's a common mistake made by some that the slavery mentioned in the Jewish Scriptures was anything like the slave trade during Roman times or the Atlantic (sometimes called "African") slave trade.

    The Torah forbade any type of slavery that resembled what the Jews experienced in Egypt, and it was nothing like the slavery of recent times, like those owned by Americans before the Civil War. For instance:

    1. Slaves in Israel became members of the household, and enjoyed the benefits and protections of the Mosaic Law such as rest on the Sabbath, rest and celebration on Jewish holy days, and thus could inherit the household's wealth and name if there was no heir to pass it to (and possibly in despite of that fact according to Proverbs 17:2).--Ge 15:3; Ex 12:44, 45, 20:10, 21:20; 23:12; Deut 5:14-15; 12:18; 16:11-14.

    2. Slaves were compensated for their work, especially when they were hurt on the job. Mistreatment by the owner could even be a reason for immediate release. If a slave died from mistreatment at the hands of their owner, the Torah demanded that the slave owner face punishment for killing another human.--Ex 21:20, 26-27; Lev 25:29, 43, 46, 53; Deut 23:17.

    3. Slaves could buy and own their own property. They could even buy their freedom from their masters.--Lev 25:29; 2 Sam 9:10; 16:4; 19:18-30 (see also 1 Sa 9:8); see also Jewish works Kid 1:3; Yad, Avadim 5:2.

    4. Those who owned slaves were forbidden by Torah to mistreat them, and kidnapping someone for the sole purpose of enslaving them or selling them into slavery was a capital offense.--Ex 21:16; Lev 25:43, 46, 53; Deut 23:17; 24:7.

    And there's more. But this should be enough to demonstrate that the service regulated by the Torah in Scripture is not the same as the slavery developed by Gentiles and employed in recently modern times.

    Too often upon leaving the Watchtower or never studying anything but a Christian interpretation of Torah, people are left reading Jewish texts through Western filters. The same often applies in other areas of Jewish writings as well.

  • ttdtt
    ttdtt

    20 “If a man strikes his slave man or his slave girl with a stick and that one dies by his hand, that one must be avenged.+ 21 However, if he survives for one or two days, he is not to be avenged, because he is someone bought with his owner’s money.

    Yea being a slave rocked!

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