The dishonesty of JWs vs mainstream churches

by Wonderment 9 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Wonderment
    Wonderment

    One of the most vexing matters confronting us as Christians has to do with the apparent lack of honesty of so-called "Christian" teachers on the many issues they frequently talk about. This should not be shocking to us since Scripture tells us that "everyone has sinned. " (Rom. 5.12, GNT) And Romans 3.4 does say: "God is honest, and everyone else is a liar." (GW) We could say that Christian teachers being "human" as they are, are going to transmit the wrong information to us at times, whether this is done on purpose or not, that’s another matter.

    I have no doubt that both the WT Society and mainstream religious groups have lied to us. Who does the most lying is not so easy to determine. Who can you trust? On the positive side, I bet that most religious people do not go about on purpose trying to deceive others. Just as Saul of Tarsus was convinced of his righteous ways when persecuting Christians, so too, many are sincere in their Christian beliefs. It was not our decision to choose the country where we were born. In many cases, we inherited the religion of our parents with all its faults. The fact is that the knowledge we currently have is partial. No one knows everything.

    When Christ disciples asked him: "Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?” He said to them: “It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction." (Acts 1.6,7) From this statement, we can say that those religious folks who pretend to have the answers as to ‘the time and hour of the end’ are going beyond what they should. Luke 21.8 reports Jesus saying: “Look out that you are not misled, for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The due time is near.’ Do not go after them." If this is so, why are some prophecies given with time frames in Scripture?

    The WT record in the past century regarding dates on the time of the end can’t be taken too seriously. They have failed us, and themselves. The WTS likes to pass the blame to the brotherhood for "their eager expectations." That’s not good! Furthermore, there are some reports of the WT Society avoiding their government responsibilities by not paying ‘to Caesar what belongs to Caesar.’ (Mark 12.17) And then they tell us we have to be ALWAYS honest, even when reporting our taxes. They often fool government agencies the world over for financial gain. Why are they not abiding by Russian rules? Why have some missionaries being caught transporting WT money and stocks illegally from one country to another? Am I missing something here?

    And then we perceive the deceit behind their doctrine of "the faithful and discreet slave," in order to exercise control over their "brothers." The doctrine "from house to house" is another cunning move lacking honesty, for what is meant by this expression is not exactly what the WT preaches. The WT policy on child molesters is not enough, and reminds me of the famous WT lawyer (Covington) saying in Court: "Unity at all costs."

    On the other hand, surprisingly, I find the WT has a much better record representing Scriptures such as John 1.1; John 1.18; John 8.58; Acts 20.28; Hebrews 1.8, among others, compared to that of predominant religious groups. I know some in this site will disagree with me, but that has been my experience. The stand of many scholars on these Scriptures, and the way they attack their opposers is embarrassingly dishonest. They frequently hide valuable information from their readers, and are not fair at all with anyone who disagrees with them. See here for one sample on John 8.58: https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5360109848887296/how-credible-nwts-critiques-allin-john-8-58-2

    Another example of distorted information presented to the public is illustrated by this article:

    https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/129670/new-world-translation-mess

    On E.C. Colwell on John 1.1 who many have trusted with all their heart, there is brief information here, for those who missed it: https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5754325897838592/colwells-rule-must-die

    Hundreds of folks cite Robert H. Countess and his book as an authority -- in his critique of John 1.1 in the NWT. However, Countess is off in his conclusions. Perhaps, I will write something briefly on the subject one of these days.

    Where I find most dishonesty within the WT deals mainly with organizational procedures, and whatever they are willing to do to justify their questionable actions as "Jehovah’s organization" before the world. Some of you have also called attention to NWT passages that have been tweaked to support the organization policies. Not to mention those WT doctrines lacking Scriptural basis.

    Mainstream churches and their leaders have been caught cheating as well. Many churchgoers have stopped going to church altogether. The don’t trust their leaders one bit. Who can we trust?

    God and Christ! That’s who!


  • humbled
    humbled
    The fact is that the knowledge we currently have is partial. No one knows everything.

    Dear Wonderment,

    That statement cuts us loose from the tyranny of religion with its “accurate knowledge”. Bible study is a deep dirty rabbit hole that generations of rabbits have dug. Was there an original excavation? How to know? To follow our own inclinations is all we can do. There can be no leaders. The scripture Matt. 23:10 “Nor are you to be called ‘teacher’, for you have one teacher, the Christ.”

    If that scripture is to be believed.

    After all the time l have been told contrary things by this one or that of ancient writings and various translations and traditional interpretations l am fed full of the unsolvable. All this telling me what Jesus said? It all begins to dissolve into laughter: Don’t listen to anyone, said the Christ. And how do we know he said this?

    Don’t listen to anyone.

  • JakeM2012
    JakeM2012

    Marking post for future. Thanks, great narrative.

  • Perry
    Perry

    John 1.1; John 1.18; John 8.58; Acts 20.28; Hebrews 1.8

    The early church elders (fathers) taught & quoted these scriptures.... a lot. Many were students taught directly by the apostles. They clarified and defended the doctrines laid out for us in the scriptures. Reading their writings leaves no doubt as to the beliefs handed down to us starting with the apostles.

    http://thecripplegate.com/did-the-early-church-affirm-jesus-deity/

  • MrRoboto
    MrRoboto

    Perry,

    Which apostles? Paul was quite the wolf in sheeps' clothing with all of his musings that run counter to Jesus words in the gospels.

    Besides that, the bible says not to put your trust in men but that is exactly what he's to be done if you are to assume the accuracy of the words of the church fathers (or more accurately, the accuracy of the words proclaiming the words of the church fathers, unless you knew those guys personally)

    Then again, the church fathers apparently debate very much about whether Revelation should be considered for biblical inclusion. This fact alone draws into question the identity of the author of at least one book which allegedly contains the words penned by... an apostle.

    It seems the bible was right, do not put your trust in humans.. But hey even if revelation is uncertain and Paul was a theological distraction, certainly we can trust the gospels, right?

    If only we could figure out how many angels were at that tomb and if he/they were on the right or left side (or outside)... and if the girls went and told everyone what they saw or whether they were to afraid to... I just can't seem to get those straight for some reason. Maybe the church fathers could shed some light.

  • humbled
    humbled

    Perry, It says Mr. Roboto said there is no certainty about these writings. As for oral traditions l used to grasp at this straw- it was an old man, Polycarp, who had been taught directly from the apostle John. He was martyred. That’s it end of story. It probably would’ve been martyred for not believing in the Trinity if you lived in a little longer. The point is so-called Christian writings are a mixed bag.

    At some point whether you’re a believer or not you have to take ownership for what you’re doing independent of writings. If you have to have some authority that you’re acting on you be taking orders from some maniac sometime

  • Perry
    Perry

    Mr. Roboto,

    Paul was accepted as an apostle by Peter, James and John... Jesus' closest confidants. Jesus admitted that he was sent primarily to the JEWS, the benefactors of previous agreements between God and Abraham , Moses etc. Largely, he was not received.

    Paul speaks of dispensations.; Which are different ways God relates to man in different time periods. Jesus, being God himself manifest in the flesh, spoke of the current dispensation prophetically. Paul was chosen to get the new dispensation kicked off.

    In a nutshell, the message to the Jews was Mt. 24: 14 (a kingdom message). This is what the Jews were waiting on and should have resonated with them. Apparently Jesus wasn't macho enough for them.

    The message to the gentiles is recorded in Acts. Ch. 10 where (the resurrected) Jesus instructs Peter and the other apostles to emphasize Judgment as the message to the gentiles. All people will be personally judged AFTER they die. (Heb. 9:27) Paul spearheaded this alternate message, since the kingdom message was rejected. This easily accounts for the differences in message between Jesus and Paul.... and obviously makes no other sense otherwise:

    Matt. 22:

    Jesus spoke to them again by parables, saying, 2 “The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son, 3 and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding, but they would not come.

    4 “Again, he sent out other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited: See, I have prepared my supper. My oxen and fattened calves are killed, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’

    5 “But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his business; 6 the rest took his servants, treated them spitefully, and killed them. 7 When the king heard about it, he was angry. He sent in his army and destroyed those murderers and burned up their city. (In 70 AD the Romans did this)

    8 “Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9 Go therefore to the streets, and invite to the wedding banquet as many as you find.’ 10 So those servants went out into the streets and gathered together as many as they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests.

    That invitation is still open to anyone who would receive it.... some 2000 years later. But, the hour is late.

  • MrRoboto
    MrRoboto

    Perry, I agree with your assessment of 70ce. Even was a preterist for a while but then I kept reading the bible more..

    Paul was mentioned by the others but which Paul? We have to admit that we can't say for sure that is the same Paul. Even if he's the only Paul in the bible, the bible is supposed to be taking place in the real world, one that had many Pauls. If it were to be taken as a fairly tale book, then we can limit all references to characters who have been on-stage do to speak, and assume there are no outside characters.

    If Paul was indeed an apostle, would that make him #13? Since Judas' slot was reassigned, the 12 was filled. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

    Can you address my last paragraph of my last comment (about the gospels) ?

    I'm not a hater so no ill will here.

  • Perry
    Perry

    There are far more capable people than I that have studied this out:

    https://zondervanacademic.com/blog/bible-contradictions-explained/

    Preterism holds that Ancient Israel finds its continuation or fulfillment in the Christian church at the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. This is also called "Replacement Theology". The Watchtower has adopted a type of replacement theology where (in their view) Israel's national contract with God that was inaugurated on Mt. Sinai was transferred onto them, the Wt. leaders. Neither view lines up with scripture:

    Galatians 3:
    For all who rely on the works of the law are under the curse. For it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the Book of the Law, to do them.”11 Now it is evident that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, for “The just shall live by faith.”12 But the law is not of faith, for “The man who does them shall live by them.”13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law by being made a curse for us—as it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”14 so that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
    The Law and the Promise
    15 Brothers, I am speaking in human terms: Though it is only a man’s covenant, yet if it is ratified, no one annuls or adds to it. 16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and his Seed. He does not say, “and to seeds,” meaning many, but “and to your Seed,”meaning one, who is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not annul the covenant that was ratified by God in Christ, so as to nullify the promise. 18 For if the inheritance comes from the law, it no longer comes from the promise. But God gave it to Abraham through a promise.

    And Romans 1: 25 - For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, lest you be wise in your own estimation, for a partial hardening has come upon Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

    Clearly, the old and new covenants are running concurrently. The former is a national covenant where only the nation of Israel is guaranteed survival. (The modern nation of Israel testifies to its veracity). The new covenant is a personal contract between God and the believer. It is FAR better because it irrevocably guarantees the avoidance of Personal Condemnation for the believer..... because Christ was condemned in our place, suffering our due punishment. God adopts us and takes personal responsibility for our continued existence, training, discipline, and yes ... he often spoils us with many gifts; just as we do with our own children.

    We are nearing the close of the Age of Grace (the current dispensation) . God will shortly deal directly with the nation of modern Israel, after the rapture of the christian believers; to restore their belief. As a nation, this time they will treat the King with the proper respect. When they collectively cry out "blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord", then he will return.

    But, it will take global upheaval to get them to do that. But, it is going to happen..... guaranteed. The Return of the King.

    One more dispensation to go - The Millennium.

    Will be quite a ride.

  • MrRoboto
    MrRoboto

    so no addressing that last paragraph then? Or the question about Paul?

    You realize that I said that I used to be a preterist, right? But then I kept reading the bible.

    Although, if I still believed in it,I think I would still stick with version of preterism. Cool thing about preterism is that you are not confined to another person's specific interpretation or dogma. But that's for those who can overlook the discrepancies and inconsistencies of the bible itself.

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