When would a non -baptized person be DA'ed?? ( Blondie or others)

by Poztate 31 Replies latest jw friends

  • simplesally

    Let me reiterate, the term was NOT disassociated. The term was either unapproved or disapproved associate. One reason it was changed was because one only became an approved associate after baptism, so making that statement as to their new "status" implied that they were approved associates beforehand.

    You're right about the marking talks for these ones now. If they, for instance, have been associating with the hall for a long time, ie children, teens of JWs, and these fall into drugs, bad behavior, there will be a marking talk. That way, people, families, etc can "privately" shun them. You know what I mean, they aren't shunned at the meetings, but certainly no invitations to hang out or come over to dinner will be extended to them.

  • minimus

    When someone was announced as "Bad Association" in harmony with 1 Cor. 15:33, they were shunned as a disfellowshipped person was. We "Corinthianized" a number of children that were not yet baptized but were still publishers in the 70's and 80's. Nobody talked to them and even parents viewed their kids as df'd ones would be treated.

  • blondie

    Having not lived through the 70's and the 80's, it might not be in the memories of many who were JWs later. The essence of the situation was that people who were not baptized but regularly associated and went in the field service were dealt with like baptized JWs when the committed acts such as fornication, adultery, smoking, etc. A judicial committee met with them and if unrepentant, it was announced to the congregation and they were to be shunned just like DF'd people were. Part of the term "associate/association" was used, in the sense that the congregation was taking the action not the individual. The term Simplesally used, Disapproved Associate, is accurate, although JWs before 1988 freely used the term "disassociated" though incorrectly. As Eduardo pointed out, the WTS eventually realized that since they were not baptized, the congregation did not have the same authority over them and it was adapted to the procedure used now. This changed due to the legal ramifications of taken such actions.

    In the Organized to Accomplish Our Ministry Book (1983) on pages 148,149 it says:

    Nonbaptized Associates Who Are Wrongdoers

    What of nonbaptized individuals who have been recognized as approved associates, have shared in the field service with the congregation or even have enrolled in the Theocratic Ministry School, but who have now become involved in serious wrongdoing? They should be deal with in a way similar to that of baptized Witnesses with the exception that, not being members of the congregation, they could not be formally expelled therefrom. It may be that they do not fully understand the Bible's standards and kind counsel may help them to make straight paths for their feet.

    If a nonbaptized wrongdoer is still unrepentant after a judicial committee has met with him and tried to help him, then it becomes necessary to inform the congegation. A brief announcement is made that the person is no longer recognized as an approved associate. (1 Cor. 15:33) The congregation will then view the wrongdoer as they would view one who has been disfellowshipped. No field service reports would be accepted from such a person.

    In 1988 this all changed to the process most of you have mentioned. But a footnote in the article indicates that this was not always the case .

    w88 11/15 p. 19 Helping Others to Worship God

    How will Witnesses thereafter view the person? Well, at an earlier point he was an ?unbeliever? attending meetings. Then he both wanted to be and qualified to be a publisher of the good news. This is no longer the case, so he again is a person of the world. The Bible does not require that Witnesses avoid speaking with him, for he is not disfellowshipped

    Previously, unbaptized ones who unrepentantly sinned were completely avoided. While, as adjusted above, this is not required, the counsel at 1 Corinthians 15:33 should still be observed.

    Some other procedures and adjustments from the 1988 Watchtower. The reason this article was prepared was to correct the previous procedures. After this those who had been unbaptized yet treated as DF'd people, could once again talk to their family and friends. The following are some more statements from the same article.

    A person who has qualified as an unbaptized publisher of the good news has moved in the direction of becoming a ?man of goodwill.? (Luke 2:14) Although he is not dedicated and baptized, now he can report his witnessing activity along with the millions of active ones earth wide who are "publishing the word of God." (Acts 13:5; 17:3; 26:22, 23) An announcement that he is a new unbaptized publisher can be made to the congregation.

    And we saw from the Bible that if a baptized wrongdoer is unrepentant, the congregation may need to expel him and thereafter avoid any fellowship with him. (1 Corinthians 5:11-13; 2 John 9-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:11, 12) What steps, though, can be taken if an unbaptized publisher seriously errs or sins?

    Would it not, then, be even more fitting that mercy be shown to an erring unbaptized person who demonstrates repentance? (Acts 3:19) Yes, for his spiritual foundation is not as solid, and his experience in Christian living is more limited. He may not have learned God?s thinking on some matters. He has not gone through the series of prebaptism Bible discussions with elders, and he has not submitted to the serious step of water immersion. (this is where the legal thinking comes in) Moreover, Jesus said that "everyone to whom much was given, much will be demanded of him." (Luke 12:48) So, much is expected of baptized ones who, along with increased knowledge and blessings, have special accountability.?James 4:17; Luke 15:1-7; 1 Corinthians 13:11.

    Consistent with Paul?s advice, spiritually qualified brothers want to assist any unbaptized publisher who takes a false step before being aware of it. (Compare Galatians 6:1.) The elders could ask two of their number (perhaps those who earlier met with him) to try to readjust him if he wants to be helped. They would do so, not out of a desire to reprove with severity, but in a merciful way and in a spirit of mildness. (Psalm 130:3) In most cases, Scriptural exhortation and practical suggestions will suffice to produce repentance and put him on the right path.

    The two elders will provide directions appropriate to the unbaptized wrongdoer?s situation. In some cases, they may arrange that for a time the erring one not be in the Theocratic Ministry School or be allowed to comment at meetings. Or they may instruct him not to share in the public ministry with the congregation until he has made more spiritual progress. Then they can tell him that he may again participate in the field ministry. If the wrongdoing did not bring notoriety and did not pose a danger to the cleanness of the flock, it is not necessary to alert the congregation by any announcement.

    What, though, if the two elders find that the person is genuinely repentant, but the wrong is widely known? Or what if the wrongdoing becomes widely known later? In either case, they can inform the Congregation Service Committee, who will arrange for a simple announcement, as follows: "A matter involving . . . has been handled, and he [she] continues to serve as an unbaptized publisher with the congregation." As in all such matters, the body of elders can determine whether it would be advisable at some future point to give a Scriptural talk with counsel about the sort of wrongdoing involved.

    Occasionally, an unbaptized publisher who is a wrongdoer will not respond to loving assistance. Or an unbaptized publisher may determine that he does not want to continue progressing toward baptism, and he informs the elders that he does not want to be recognized as a publisher. What is to be done? Disfellowshipping action is not taken regarding such ones who actually have not become approved by God. (yet approved to go in the ministry!) The arrangement of disfellowshipping unrepentant wrongdoers applies to those ?called brothers,? to baptized ones. (This is being said because previous to 1988 the DFing arrangement was being applied to unbaptized ones)(1 Corinthians 5:11) Does this mean, though, that the wrongdoing is ignored? No.

    The elders are responsible to ?shepherd the flock of God in their care.? (1 Peter 5:2) If two elders offering help determine that an unbaptized wrongdoer is unrepentant and unqualified to be a publisher, they will inform the individual.

    The elders are responsible to ?shepherd the flock of God in their care.? (1 Peter 5:2) If two elders offering help determine that an unbaptized wrongdoer is unrepentant and unqualified to be a publisher, they will inform the individual.


    Footnote ***

    If the individual is dissatisfied with this conclusion, he may request (within seven days) to have the matter reviewed.

    Or if some unbaptized one tells the elders that he no longer wishes to be recognized as a publisher, they will accept his decision. In either case, it is appropriate for the Congregation Service Committee to have a simple announcement made at an appropriate time, saying " . . . is no longer a publisher of the good news."

  • Stacy Smith
    Stacy Smith

    While my parents wrote a DA letter for themselves I never did as I was never baptised. After my parents left they were announced and I was mentioned in this fashion.

    Stacy Smith is still a poor association. Please keep that in mind.

    I get shunned by a few old farts but I always remind them that I was never baptised and that it's really ok to smile at me. Most will smile, a few anal ones shun away.

  • Sassy

    I don't think legally they can do more to someone not baptized who does something out of line. Legally you have not 'dedicated your life to Jeh/ie in their eyes to the org) so you have not entered into a contract with them promising anything. That is why they can suggest you are not good association (i.e. disapproved associate) but not DA or DF you.

  • Poztate
    have seen them change rules and standards more than I change underwear.

    This is what concerns me.I don't have ANY trust that at a whim they won't change rules again.It matters not the damage they inflict on peoples private lives. Even after many years their stupid rules contine to HURT,HURT, HURT PEOPLE !!!!! Thanks Bliss

    Blondie,What can I say,

    The research and effort you put into this reply is fantastic and helps me a lot.To see all the different points in one post helps to clear this up in my mind.I believe that my own personal situation can go a lot smoother knowing these things. A BIG THANK YOU BLONDIE!!!!

  • JT

    just a little background on this issue- RP Johnson a Society Trouble Shooter told a group of us why they made the change and once again it was THE LEGAL DEPT-

    it had to do with some countries where the wt was being sued by folks who were never baptized and now they are being SLANDERED as "Wicked" persay

    so once again the legal dept stepped in and told the boys in Service and Writing to come up with some "biblical BS" so that they could institued this new legal policy

    i keep telling you folks the org of TODAY IS no longer being run by the Writing and Servcie Dept like it was in the old days

    today basically

    1. Legal

    2. The Accountants

    run the org and everyone else falls in line based on thier decsions

  • nicolaou
  • morty

    I am in the same boat as little witch...

    I was never baptized myself but was shunned also by people in the borg...labelled as bad association....

    Baptized or not, it still hurt to have your only friends you know to ignor you...(especially at such a young age)


  • willyloman

    This thread is just like a typical elder's meeting when a heavy questions comes up: Everybody flounders around expressing their own opinion until finally, one of the heavyweight elders (in this case, Blondie) points out that there is something in writing about this, and here it is. Then learned brother JT weighs in with an experience based on his connections to Bethyl, and ta-da! The body is enlightened, which, of course, is then attributed to the influence of holy spirit.

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