Here's the reality. If you were a JW for any length of time but especially if you were one for many years, you cannot just press the ignore button and stop relating to JW things. It's unrealistic and unhealthy. If a person finds himself totally shunned by his former "friends" and he was at one time a Witness, he will automatically connect to that history. Is that a bad thing?? No! If a woman and man were married to each other for 25 years, had kids, made friends and connections, etc. just because they get a divorce, it doesn't mean that they will stop sharing some connection.I do believe that we must take control over our own destinies and that we must work hard to overcome being in bondage to our past life. But we MUST never ignore our past and realize that if we do get shunned here, it could feel the same as a disfellowshipping. That could simply be how it is. It doesn't necessarily have to mean that it's a weakness.
The Program Within
by Lady Lee 42 Replies latest members private
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Lady Lee
Phantom You make some interesting points. I will comments piece by piece
Since I tend to not believe in "mind control", and since I was raised in the WTS, I tend to think of it as the learned responses, attitudes, and reactions that we all learn as children - 95% by the time we are 16 years old!
I would suspect most of our learned beliefs about how we should behave and response are learned much earlier. By the teens most people are moving into thinking in the abstract and begin to challenge the taught beliefs. In the JWs this normal developmental stage is squelched.
Regardless of our religious upbringing, everyone has these programs from childhood - some of them serve us and some of them are artificially limiting. Identifying what the limiting ones are, and creating new ones to replace/compete, so as to be as effective as possible in our lives, is what I'm talking about.
Agreed. Every person gets this. Most people begin to assess what they were taught in the teen years which may explain why so many younger ones are leaving now than they did in the past. With more access to information outside the org teens are mare able to redefine their beliefs and rebel at what was taught to them
Yes, growing up a JW gives you a lot more limiting programmed beliefs than average, but you'd still have some, raised JW or not. The thing is, they didn't program us - we did! Not good or bad, but we're the ones that originally made the decision (bad data or no, we still decided to go along), so we're the only ones that can unmake it - no one can do it for us.
How does a child or 4 or 5 or 10 program themselves. Especially when they are not given all the choices and limited information. People need information to evaluate what they already know. Without the information all they would have is the reactions and in the JW world that is interpreted as sinning against the spirit if one does not agree and conform. I do agree however that WE are the ones to undo the damage. No one can do that for us.
I beleive that those who convert to the WTS as adults have some important need being filled - acceptance, structure, or a promise of escape from a life in this system that one has decided is filled with pain and suffering. In my opinion, it's a lousy way to address those needs.
I totally agree
That's why I think that the only time Witnesses choose consciously to leave is after they've grown into a position of self-worth that lets them examine the data objectively, and determine if their benefits are really worth the prices they are paying.
I don't know if everyone chooses to leave because their self-worth has grown. In my case and that if my sister we left because we felt we could never measure up to the standards put before us. And I didn't examine anything about the JW for 10 years after I left. My sister still hasn't done it and she left 30 years ago. A lot of stories here seem to echo the same thoughts
If one feels that the WTS is the only way they will ever feel accepted, deserving, or hopeful, we can trot all the scnadals we want out there, and they won't take hold.
again I totally agree which is why I think we cannot present those "facts" to them. it works far better to connect on the emotional level to get around the thought stopping controls -
Lady Lee
Min
Here's the reality. If you were a JW for any length of time but especially if you were one for many years, you cannot just press the ignore button and stop relating to JW things. It's unrealistic and unhealthy.
Agreed Min
If a person finds himself totally shunned by his former "friends" and he was at one time a Witness, he will automatically connect to that history. Is that a bad thing?? No!
Perfectly normal response
I do believe that we must take control over our own destinies and that we must work hard to overcome being in bondage to our past life. But we MUST never ignore our past and realize that if we do get shunned here, it could feel the same as a disfellowshipping. That could simply be how it is. It doesn't necessarily have to mean that it's a weakness.
Exactly Min. It isn't a weakness. It is human nature. But I think the problem lies in continuing to connect the two as if they were the same event and they are not. They are two separate events in very different circumstances. If the lesson keeps coming back and we repeatedly find ourselves in similar situations that eleicit similar reacions perhaps there is something we need to find resolution and healing so it doesn't come back again. I'll give you an example. I spent most of my life being controlled by others. I never spoke up. But inside my stomach was in knots because of all the controls. When I left the WTS and went to college we had a young woman in the class who loved to be in control. She dictated tot he group what to do and never gave in until she got what she wanted. I wasn't the only one to have a problem with her. There were about 10 of us who found her difficult to deal with. But I sat down and tried to figure out why she bothered me so much. I spent so much time thinking about her and the problems she was causing. I was totally focused on her and what she was doing. But what I really need to focus on was ME and my reactions. So I did that. I took a look at what happened and how I was reacting. And what it reminded me of. Well it was painful but so helpful. I came away with a new awareness of me. And the next time I went into class and had to deal with her she just didn't bother me so much. She was still acting the same way but the self analysis had changed me. I determined that control was an issue for me - a big issue. And that by focusing on HER I was giving her continued pwer that was mine - just handing it over like a child. Well I didn't like how that felt. And it was a relief to change it. Since then few people have affected me like that - very few and it doesn't last long because I can feel it and check it out and do something - even if it is only to change my beliefs and then reactions.
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minimus
At times, I've seen certain ones connect EVERYTHING happening here to being a JW. If someone mistreated you, it's because of mistreatment had in the congregation. If a male differed in opinion, it's because we're all wannabe elders still. If a woman is strong-willed, she's a Jezebel. EVERYTHING had to have a JW connection. Now, that's not healthy! But, there might be some real similar situations here on JWD and formerly in the local congregation. There really could! To acknowledge this is ok. It's not a slam against the "organization" here.
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Lady Lee
Exactly my point Min - Thank you
To continue to relate all experiences as if they were JW related is unhealthy and reflects their continued control is active within.
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Lady Lee
I just found this on the net. I think it demonstrates the point I am trying to make
Anonymous:
A daughter complained to her father about her life and how things were so hard for her. She did not know how she was going to make it and wanted to give up. She was tired of fighting and struggling. It seemed as one problem was solved a new one arose.
Her father, a chef, took her to the kitchen. He filled three pots with water and placed each on a high fire. Soon the pots came to a boil. In one he placed carrots, in the second he placed eggs, and the last he placed ground coffee beans. He let them sit and boil, without saying a word.
The daughter sucked her teeth and impatiently waited, wondering what he was doing. In about twenty minutes he turned off the burners. He fished the carrots out and placed them in a bowl. He pulled the eggs out and placed them a bowl. Then he ladled the coffee out and placed it in a bowl. Turning to her he asked. "Darling, what do you see?"
"Carrots, eggs, and coffee," she replied.
He brought her closer and asked her to feel the carrots. She did and noted that they were soft. He then asked her to take an egg and break it. After pulling off the shell, she observed the hard-boiled egg. Finally, he asked her to sip the coffee. She smiled as she tasted its rich aroma. She humbly asked. "What does it mean Father?"
He explained that each of them had faced the same adversity, boiling water, but each reacted differently. The carrot went in strong, hard, and unrelenting. But after being subjected to the boiling water, it softened and became weak.
The egg had been fragile. Its thin outer shell had protected its liquid interior. But after sitting through the boiling water, its inside became hardened.
The ground coffee beans were unique, however. After they were in the boiling water, they had changed the water.
"Which are you?" he asked his daughter. "When adversity knocks on your door, how do you respond? Are you a carrot, an egg, or a coffee bean?" Are you the carrot that seems hard, but with pain and adversity do you wilt and become soft and lose your strength? Are you the egg, which starts off with a malleable heart? Were you a fluid spirit, but after a death, a breakup, a divorce, or a layoff have you become hardened and stiff. Your shell looks the same, but are you bitter and tough with a stiff spirit and heart?
Or are you like the coffee bean? The bean changes the hot water; the thing that is bringing the pain, to its peak flavor reaches 212 degrees Fahrenheit. When the water gets the hottest, it just tastes better.
If you are like the coffee bean, when things are at their worst, you get better and make things better around you.
How do you handle adversity? Are you a carrot, an egg, or coffee?If the boiling water is our JW experience we need to use it to our advantage and not allow it to continue to mold us.
On a personal note I have found that using my past experiences of all kinds of abuse empowers me in my present life and to help others. Sort of like getting lemons and making lemonade. I use the experience. It no longer uses me.
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Phantom Stranger
Thanks for the detailed comments, LL. I'd like to elaborate a bit on my statement about us programming ourselves. (Oh, the breakdown I've heard several times is 50% by age 4, 25% by age 8, 20% by 16 - I just added them up, and I know they are very rough averages, and I'm not amrried to them by any means.)
Whenever events occur around us, we make up a story to explain the events - to make sense of them. We have to - it's a human response. That is not to say that as children we felt free to choose our own story - but we still chose it. That is not to make that choice wrong or bad. I went along with what I was taught as a kid - of course, that is not wrong or bad for a child to do.
My point is that the significance of the event, the decision to go along with this, and that it must be the truth - came from inside us, so we are the only ones that can reverse it - no one can do it for us, we are the force of agency. Whether we were likely to disagree or not, we still chose not to disagree, and I think that that's relevant when we examine changing it again and leaving. If one is clear on the difference between responsibility and guilt/blame, I think this distinction can be of great service. Please note that I am not saying it's a childs fault that they go along with being raised a Witness.
I'll phrase it like this - at some point, I said to myself "What Mom is saying is true, because she's my mom and she wouldn't tell me something that wasn't true - so all this must be true. Wow, I better learn all this and do everything just right, because Mom said it's the truth, so it is the truth." That's the story I made up in my head to make sense out of what was being said.
So my point was that we did what seemed to make sense at the time to resolve the information we were given. And as we agreed, we are the only ones that can undo it. Until that inital decision is questioned internally, all the external data in the world can some along, and we don't change it.
So, LL, when you decided you couldn't live up to the standards, did you feel that you could survive emotionally without the WTS? If not right away, how did you get there?
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Lady Lee
Phantom Yes I see what you are saying but I think on the child thing we will continue to disagree - which is okay. We are allowed
but I will respond to your final question
So, LL, when you decided you couldn't live up to the standards, did you feel that you could survive emotionally without the WTS? If not right away, how did you get there?
When I left the borg I was very suicidal. I was at the point that I believed I would not exist either inside or outside the org. I had my plans made to die.
But since I am such a wus when it comes to some things I am still here.
I went to college, started creating a life for myself but still felt condemned to die if the end should come. For 10 years I was still fully under their influence. I still believed they were the only source of truth.
And then a friend asked me a question about the JWs. And I started doing some research - acquired more information. Once I had more information I was able to evaluate the old and new and arrive at some very different conclusions than those I was given.
Without the new information I don't think I would have been able to break free - which is why sites such as this are so important to those coming out.
Something to consider here might be that I left almost 20 years ago when access to anti-JW information was hard to find and I think the org was a very different place than it is now. I see more people inside the org becomeing disillusioned and finding sites like this - actively searching them out in fact - simply because they can do this in the privacy of their homes and it is safe. I think many who are leaving now are hearing the media reports and are exposed to a lot more of the problems within the congregation and are see ing some of the hypocacy. And many are just plain burnt out.
Maybe it was just wussy me or the lack of information available or the times but I do think things have changed drastically and they will continue to change for the worse for those left inside.
Getting back to the info issue for a moment though I think the information control that the org used to have over its members, especially the young was a major factor in its ability to hold on to members. That control is gone in developing countries where people have internet access.
If the org uses information (which uses language for its expression) to control people, then the more aware we are of the information and language we use then the freer we can be
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Phantom Stranger
I wouldn't use the wussy term personally, LL - not doing that is braver than doing it most of the time.
I absolutely understand not being able to break free without that information. A question that I'm honestly interested in is, if you had received the info earlier, before you went to college and lived through your suicidal period (which sounds like you emerged from stronger than before), would you have accepted the info at that earlier time? It's possible that you were situated to accept it objectively at that point. Or not - just my view. Glad you did though :)
That is a great point - I think that there are many XJW's whose high self-regard gave them the strength to act when the dsicovered the information that modern information technolgies made much easier to access. The ones who are proof against this info, I think, fall into the other category.
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Lady Lee
would you have accepted the info at that earlier time? It's possible that you were situated to accept it objectively at that point.
knowing the "me" that I was back then I would not have looked at the info. I would have been too scared
We had a couple of men in the cong who were DFed for apostasy. One was an uncle of mine. He never spoke to us of some of his thinking. And I doubted that I would have listened. I to be honest I just really believed that Satan could influence me away from the "truth" and I WAS afraid of Satan.
It wasn't until I had some time away from their teachings and I stumbled across some info by accident that I began to find out what was really going on in WT-land. I think if it hadn't been by accident I might still be stuck in that WT-land-in-my-head - oooo scary thought. but once presented with the info in the safety of my home my curiosity got the better of me and got my mind free.
Even then it took me a while to actually believe it. All the old apostate crap came flooding in and fear did start up again but I hate injustce and hypocracy more than I fear Satan. What really got me was the injustice of the Malawi/Mexico scandal. I could not fathom it or tolerate it. - It touched me more than anything else I had read and broke the bonds. After that I felt free to read anything I wanted without fear