Visible org

by A Paduan 10 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  A Paduan

  I've heard that jws explain their non-links to early christianity by some sort of imagined "competition of religions" that they "won" - is this true?

  Or else, how else do they explain away writings like this -

  "All the ancient records of the Roman bishops which have been handed down to us by St. Irenaeus , Julius Africanus, St. Hippolytus, Eusebius , also the Liberian catalogue of 354, place the name of Linus directly after that of the Prince of the Apostles, St. Peter . These records are traced back to a list of the Roman bishops which existed in the time of Pope Eleutherus (about 174-189), when Irenaeus wrote his book "Adversus haereses"."

  A passage by Irenaeus (Adv. haereses, III, iii, 3) reads:

  After the Holy Apostles (Peter and Paul) had founded and set the Church in order (in Rome) they gave over the exercise of the episcopal office to Linus. The same Linus is mentioned by St.Paul in his Epistle to Timothy. His successor was Anacletus.
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  Gopher

  Their explanation goes something like this:

  1. The early Christian church apostatized from Christ's "true teachings" by compromising with non-Christian doctrines.

  2. This led to a sort of spiritual "dark age" where only a few brave souls dared practice true Christianity.

  3. In the last days (as they see it), true worship would be "restored" and grow and flourish. That would be, of course, exclusively Jehovah's Witnesses.

  4. Everyone else can take their teachings and their history down with them to Gehenna if they don't listen to the "truth" as proclaimed by the one organization God is using, Jehovah's Witnesses.
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  mizpah

  I think the argument that the church was soon corrupted after the death of the apostles and early disciples is valid. Jesus had foretold of the "wolves" who would enter among the brothers and carry off the faith. John hints at the terrible condition of the churches by the end of the first century. The church was fragmented by the time of the early "church fathers." So, it was in their interest to establish an authority that would give them credence. What better way than to establish Rome as the church in authority and its leaders as inheritors of Peter and Paul? But ,historically, this was widely contended by the other churches and leaders even as it is today by the Orthodox believers.

  That religious organizations can change within a short period of time can be seen in the history of the Watchtower itself. Look what happened to leadership of the Watchtower in the transition between Russell and Rutherford.

  The Catholic church cites its line of popes as evidence of its primacy. Many have question the validity of this list...and the whole idea of "apostolic succession."
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  A Paduan

  Jesus had foretold of the "wolves" who would enter among the brothers and carry off the faith.

  Where did he say that the faith, as opposed to the faith of some, would be carried off ?
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  Gopher

  Actually it was the apostle Paul who foretold the "wolves" in Acts 20:29.

  "I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among you and not treat the flock with tenderness, and from among you yourselves men will arise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves."
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  mizpah

  Gopher:

  Thanks. I stand corrected. Perhaps, I should have used Jesus' illustration (parable) of the sower and the seed or the net and the fish. (Matthew 13) The good and bad all were gathered together until the very end when the separation would take place. And this seems to be done not on the basis of religious association.

  There is a certain arrogance in religious organizations that claim primacy because of apostolic succession (Catholic) or restoration of pure Christianity (Watchtower Society). The fact is that these human organizations all fail under God's perfect standards. Good people are found in all of them. But so are the bad.
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  A Paduan

  Again,

  and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves

  I didn't hear, "....and draw away the disciples...."

  Also,

  There is a certain arrogance in religious organizations that claim primacy

  There is arrogance in religious organisations, for sure, but I think that the claim of "primacy due to our pure christianity" is not quite the same - it seems a little different wouldn't you think?
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  Elsewhere

  3. In the last days (as they see it), true worship would be "restored" and grow and flourish. That would be, of course, exclusively Jehovah's Witnesses.

  Yet there continues to be "new light" and new truth making "old light" and old "truth" an apostate offence... not to mention that if you "run ahead" of the organization you are again condemned for apostacey.

  "True Worship" is what the WT says it is at any given moment. Once that moment passes "truth" becomes apostacy.
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  ClassAvenger

  From what I know, the church did not fall into apostate teachings and this and that. If it had, the combination of these teachings and Christian doctrine should be observable in the writings of the early church fathers. Although I haven't read these in their totality, I've read portions of them. I like how Robert U. Finnerty explains this, " If an abrupt postapostolic apostasy did occur, the apostles must have been incompetent evangelists, who utterly failed to accomplish Jesus' comission to make the disciples of men. Such an apostasy would speak poorly of Jehovah God as well, whose 'holy spirit' was unable to preserve the purity and truth of his church for even a single generation after the apostles."
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  A Paduan

  good point