Genesis 18:27

by JPG123 10 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • JPG123

    In Genesis 18:27 it says:

    But Abraham again responded: “Please, here I have presumed to speak to Jehovah, whereas I am dust and ashes.

    But when referencing the interlinear translation of the Old Testament, it clearly uses the Hebrew word “adonai” instead of “Yahweh” in this verse. Was Abraham referring to God as “Lord” in this verse?

    If so, does this support a trinitarian argument that since God is Lord and Jesus is also Lord, that they are the same?

    Appreciate the feedback, thanks!

  • JoenB75

    Yes being called Lord does not in itself make Jesus God. Remember Acts 2:36 God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah

    Not even being called El or Elohim makes someone YHWH. Forinstance Ezekiel 31:11 and Psalm 45:6-7. Still of course there is much evidence for Jesus being God incarnate and nothing that explicitely teaches the JW doctrine about Jesus.

  • vienne

    I do not know which interlinear you used, but Green's says in verse 26: "Jehovah" [YHWH]. Berry's is the same. Verse 26 specifically says, "Jehovah." Kholenberger et all. have the same, but use Yahweh. So the Lord to whom Abraham refers is Jehovah.

    That established, 1 Cor. 8:5 observes that there are many called God and many called Lord. Being called Lord does not mean that one is the same person as someone else called lord. There is not valid trinitarian argument here.

    The Hebrew word 'adouneem' is a title given to men holding authority. In Gen 18-19 we find 'Baaleem.' That's a term applied to owners and masters. God is, of course, the ultimate owner or master of all. But the term was applied to men, pagan gods, and Jehovah. [See Pick's Dictionary of Old Testament Words; and The Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament.] The word Lord as applied to Jesus is κύριος [Kyrios]. It has a similar meaning. Vine defines it as "signifying having power or authority" when used as an adjective [i.e.: the lord Christ Jesus].

    Vine further observes that the word is "equally appropriate to either [Jesus or God.]" He cites many examples which when consulted differentiate between God and Christ. In fairness I should note that Vine was trinitarian.

    If you intend to follow up at some depth, I see the Insight book as helpful in this case. But you will also want to visit Lang's Commentary; Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament; Vincent's Word Studies; and Wuest's Word Studies. These are all trinitarian, but will help you understand the usage of the words involved here.

  • johnamos

    [18:27 But Abraham went on to answer and say: “Please, here I have taken upon myself to speak to Jehovah,* whereas I am dust and ashes]

    *See vs 3 ftn.

    [18:3 Then he said: “Jehovah,* if now, I have found favor in your eyes, please do not pass by your servant.]

    *This is the first of 134 places where the Jewish Sopherim changed YHWH to ʼAdho·naiʹ. This substitution was made out of misapplied reverence for God’s name. See App 1B.

  • Phizzy

    If you read what Scholars have said about the Trinity Doctrine, in Bible Dictionaries and Commentaries etc, you will see that it is agreed the Doctrine is not to be found at all in either the O.T or the N.T.

    Of especial pertinence to this question is the Jewish Encyclopaedia and its entry on this, after all, Genesis is from their "Bible" !

    The consensus by Scholars is also that Abraham is a Fictional figure, therefore what he is supposed to have said has no bearing upon beliefs or faith.

  • menrov
  • truth_b_known

    Yahweh aka Jehovah is not the most high god of Israel. Yahweh/Jehovah is not Jesus father.

  • HowTheBibleWasCreated

    The whole story of Abraham meeting three angels one of which is Yahweh is taken directly from Baucis and Philemon

  • vienne


    Without digging deeply into it, I thing that Ovid's story of Baucis and Philemon isn't the basis of the Abraham story. Ovid is the sole source of that story, I believe. He lived at the tail end of the first century BCE and into the first century CE. The story of Abraham and the three angels appears in the Septuagint, a product of the third century BCE.

    So we must look to another source for the Abraham and three angels story.

    As I said, I'm not digging into this. Am I wrong here?

  • HowTheBibleWasCreated

    viere. I will explain that in detail in two days I'm on vacation until Tuesday lol..

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