What the Trinitarian perspective on John 8.28?

by slimboyfat 49 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    @Wonderment

    However, the NT does not only present Jesus Christ as a man, the Scriptures do not call him either a creature or an archangel at all, but rather asserts that He is LORD and that he is GOD, thus the relationship between the former and the latter aspects, as well as his relationship with the Father had to be systematizated.

    You could know the Bible enough to know that it is not a book of theology, it is not a book of dogmatics, it will not declare it like the Chalcedonian Creed. But he teaches in terms of content: that He was God, and that He also became man. These are two different natures, and by definition, different attributes are associated with them.

    It's like having two baskets and a bunch of apples. Red apples go into one basket, green apples into the other. In the Holy Scriptures, statements ("apples") suggesting Jesus' deity go into one "basket" (referring to his divinity), those referring to his humanity go into the other. Christian theology is precisely about the fact that no "apple" has to be thrown out or distorted, as the NWT does, but only put in the right "basket".

    So is it sufficient to prove the existence of those two "baskets", or should I prove it in every single statements that which one does it belong to? Or is say: it's purely logical (for example, Jesus suffered, as God cannot suffer, as human he can, so it's meant according to his humanity), you will cry: "It's philosophy!"

    Don't forget that, according to Nicene theology, the Son received both his existence and his deity from the Father, but not in time and not in a derivative, separable manner. Just a reminder: "The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten." (Athanasian Creed)

    It is very easy to prove the statement, the New Testament declares countless times that the Son is "begotten" (gennao), "born" (tikto) of the Father, but that he was "created" (ktizo), or "made" (poio), precisely nowhere. The Scriptures clearly state that the Son receives his existence from the Father in a qualitatively different way than the creatures. If you claim that this strict terminological difference means nothing, then the burden of proof is on you.

    You claim that the Nicene Creed is not Biblical, well which part of this condradicts the NT specifically?

    "Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (æons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made"

    To your greatest regret, all of these statements are explicitly included in the Holy Scriptures, namely that a) He is made, not begotten, hence a creature, b) Michael the Archangel, c) he is non-God, that is not.

    Not to mention that the Scriptures specifically teach that the Church must be continuous, visible and indefectible (cf. Mt 16:18, 28:20, Lk 10:16, Jn 14:16, 1Tim 3:15), so it is conceptually impossible for a contradiction to exist between the kerygma of the continuously visibly existing Church and the teaching of Scripture. It is therefore impossible for such a "Great Apostasy" to happen, as the JWs and Mormons claim, so that two thousand years later dilettante self-proclaimed "theologians" have to "restore" the alleged "true" doctrine from scratch, just from the open Bible on the desk.

    The fact that today's JWs call the Council of Nicea "late" is ironic to say the least, even laughable, when their denomination did not exist until the end of the 19th century, and most of their distinctive doctrines have no precedent in the history of Christianity at all, and every few decades they rewrite their own teachings to such an extent that they prefer to hide their old publications from the current believers, so that they are not confused by the old "lights".

  • Halcon
    Halcon

    aqwsed12345

    The verses you quoted have nothing to do with what I was talking about. They do not praise learned ignorance or JW-style theological barbarism. By the way, even the apostles didn't understand everything that Jesus taught, since, as Christ said, the Holy Spirit would later make them understand the teaching

    Jesus could not have used a more simple to understand example of a human relationship to describe the one between himself and God. Not only did he use the example of father and son once, he did it over and over, thereby affirming the impression of father and son into the minds of his disciples.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    I was curious to find out if Trinitarians had an answer for this verse.

    The answers forthcoming on the thread have been weak. The suggestion that Jesus was “taught” somehow “outside time” and it doesn’t point to disparity in knowledge, not only adds extra-biblical ideas into the equation, but it still fails to address the issue.

    Job and Isaiah describe God as one who cannot be taught anything by anyone else.

    Yet John says that Jesus was taught by his Father who sent him to earth.

    Clearly, for the early Christians, Jesus was distinguished from and subordinate to God almighty. This verse shows that Jesus is less than God in terms of knowledge.

    In order to force Trinitarian dogma into this text you end up making strange claims such as that being taught doesn’t imply you didn’t know beforehand, and OT verses that say God cannot be taught are somehow not at odds with “God the Son” being taught, so long as it’s “outside time”.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    @Halcon

    The statements of Jesus written in the Gospel are not all that Jesus said (John 21:25), and Jesus himself said that he sends the Holy Spirit because He will remind the apostles of the teaching (John 14:26). The parables mostly parables about moral dilemmas in the Gospels, which were mostly addressed to the average workingmen of Galilee, are of course different categories. Christ adapted the complexity of his narrative to the level of education of the audience. But if he spoke to learned people or more theologically complex questions, the situation was different, for example, he spoke to the priests in the Temple even at the age of 12 saying "all who heard him were astounded at his understanding and his answers" (Luke 2:47)

    Describing his relelationship with God using the terms "Father" and "Son" is of course a perceptive analogy, but this does not prove that the Son was created or that he is ontologically inferior to the Father, just as it is not in the human world.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    @slimboyfat

    ".... not only adds extra-biblical ideas..."

    The idea is biblical, since the Bible teaches the begetting of the Son from the Father, that he fully possessed the Godhead, and that the Father gave him everything. Thus, there is only one task left, which is to include in "everything" the divine knowledge, which, by definition, He received from the Father.

    "God as one who cannot be taught anything by anyone else."

    Which, based on the context, does not mean that there cannot be such a divine person as the Nicene Christology asserts about the Son, who is born of the Father and who gained all his knowledge, the divine omniscience from another divine person (the Father), but nothing more than that God is necessarily omniscient and therefore cannot acquire new knowledge from creatures.

    "Clearly, for the early Christians...."

    Oh, yes "clearly", so ask them about this too, somehow there isn't a single early Christian source that claims that the Son was "made" and that Michael was an archangel.

    Pliny the Younger (c. 61 – c. 113), the provincial governor of Pontus and Bithynia, wrote to Emperor Trajan c. 112 concerning how to deal with Christians, who refused to worship the emperor, and instead worshiped "Christus".

    Alexamenos graffito: "Alexamenos worships [his] God", this also disproves the JWs' "torture stake" idea.

    Other sources:

    https://www.bible.ca/H-trinity.htm

    https://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-history-apostolic-fathers.htm

    "Jesus was distinguished from and subordinate to God almighty."

    Since the Son became a man, and because of the kenosis, this "distinction" is legitimate, but at the same time they also claimed that the Son is real God as well.

    "This verse shows that Jesus is less than God in terms of knowledge."

    Nope, this verse does not "show" that he has less knowledge, but that he received his knowledge from the Father, and this is precisely what the Nicene Christology claims as well. Just the repeat: "Whatever the Son is or has, He has from the Father, and is the principle from a principle." So the fact that He received all his knowledge from the Father does not prove that He has less knowledge. And according to Jn 21:17, the apostle Peter specifically said to Jesus that "Lord, you know everything". And only the true God can be omniscient.

    "In order to force Trinitarian dogma into this text ..."

    There is no need to "force" anything here, just find an interpretation that harmonizes with the other statements made about the Son in the NT.

    "...you end up making strange claims such as that being taught doesn’t imply you didn’t know beforehand..."

    Such processes as "learning", "birth", etc. only in the created world do they require temporal succession (before-after), as this is excluded due to the principle of God's immutability, therefore logical succession is sufficient in this case.

  • Blotty
    Blotty

    Slim:

    I would raise the question of: If any of Jesus' statements like the one in John 8:28 imply shiliach, as looking in the OT we have examples of prophets doing Just as Jesus said he was doing i.e saying something another "greater" person told them to say. - So Why did he make such a claim?

    otherwise we raise the question: If Jesus had all this knowledge already, Why did he say he got it from the Father?

    "So the fact that He received all his knowledge from the Father does not prove that He has less knowledge. " - but it raises the question of what the point of him receiving this knowledge is... if he already had it in the first place.. (or so you claim) Why claim something that isnt true of one of his natures? you cant even say it was implied because the two nature doctrine is never even implied at all..
    Justin Martyr does an excellent job on explaining Christs origins (as Wisdom), so does Origen - scripture doesn't call Christ alot of things that you call him.. Some Herbs aren't called Herbs.. but are an exception to the catergory... One Human apparently has no beginning or end.

    and on Jn 21:17 - another scripture claims some humans know everything too - Why are you ignoring that passage, I believe even Tetullian brings this passage up

    Iv read through some of the church fathers... they don't claim any of this infact claim to the contrary - Who should I be reading?

    Wonderment hit the nail on the head, you are trying way to hard to convince yourself of all this..


  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    @Blotty

    Both Justin Martyr and Tertullian held that the Son was begotten of the Father and is truly God, not that the Father created/made him and that he is an (arch)angel.

    In John 8:28, Jesus refers to Himself not as "the Son", "the Word", or "the Son of God", but specifically with the title "the Son of Man", thus this statement pertains to His human nature. Jesus' human knowledge was limited and he learned new things, see Luke 2:52, Hebrews 5:7-9. Of course, in terms of His divine nature too, He naturally obtained all His knowledge from the Father, not through a temporal process - I suppose, I hope you do not imagine this in some anthropomorphic way.

    According to JW theology, the Father is not inherently and actually omniscient either, just has an "ability" to "foreknow", which he exercises "selectively" according to his will. This view was actually adopted by Jehovah's Witnesses from the Socinians, who believed that God's omniscience was limited to what was a necessary truth in the future (what would definitely happen) and did not apply to what was a contingent truth (what might happen). They believed that, if God knew every possible future, human free will was impossible and as such rejected the "hard" view of omniscience. So based on this, even if the Son did not know something, it would not exclude him from being a real God based on your logic.

    Here, Augustine parallels the statement "neither the Son, but the Father" with Genesis 22:12 ("Now I know that you fear God"). This article elaborates on the manner of Jesus' knowledge as follows:

    13) Christ’s Knowledge: How much did Jesus know? If he was God, why was some of His knowledge limited?

    The Jehovah's Witnesses contend that Jesus could not be God because of his limited knowledge for Jesus “learned obedience” (Should You Believe, Chapter 7), did not know the precise day and hour of the Last Day (ibid.), and was given a revelation by God (ibid.). Much of the Jehovah's Witnesses’ confusion here likewise stems from their inability to comprehend the hypostatic union of the God-man Jesus (i.e., it was the created human Jesus, who was not God, who learned obedience). Nor do they understand the nature of Jesus’ three-fold human knowledge.

    Theologians are in general agreement that Jesus had a) the beatific, or intuitive, vision of God; b) infused knowledge, and c) acquired knowledge (Catholic Encyclopedia, 930).

    A) Vision/Intuitive or Beatific Knowledge

    With respect to His vision knowledge it is taught that “Christ in His humanity, i.e., in His human intellect, from the very first instant of the incarnation, had the immediate vision of God, (ibid., 930). “[T]he two, hypostatic union and vision, of necessity go together.”

    Christ’s self-awareness as a Divine Person in His human nature includes the beatific, or immediate, vision of God.

    Christ’s vision of God, it is common teaching, was not comprehensive with regard to its primary object, the divine essence; it was limited because it was human. Nor does it extend, as to its secondary objects, to all that the divine knowledge comprehends, but only to what pertains to the object of God’s vision knowledge…. not to the object of the knowledge of simple understanding …; and here it extends particularly, if not exclusively, to all that pertains to His mission and man’s salvation. (ibid.)

    B) Infused Knowledge

    Whereas “the vision is inexpressible in human concepts (Catholic Encyclopedia, 930) and is a knowledge that ‘Christ derived from His contact with the Father,” Christ’s infused knowledge is “expressible in human concepts and words” (ibid., 938). “The distinction may be explicit in Scripture (cf Jn 7.16; Mt 11.27). Infused knowledge is similar to angelic knowledge, “Because vision knowledge is incommunicable in human terms, and Christ’s mission entailed the communication to men of divine mysteries …” i.e., salvation, “ … a communicable knowledge of these mysteries was necessary” (ibid.). Infused knowledge was required because of Jesus’ mission.

    Today theologians incline to explain the extension of Christ’s infused knowledge from the purpose and nature of His mission; this was a coming in lowliness, not in glory, and did not require the knowledge of all human learning … but only of all that pertains to men’s salvation …. This was necessary and sufficient for Christ to discharge His mission.” (Catholic Encyclopedia, 938)

    C) Acquired Knowledge

    “The fact of Christ’s experiential, or acquired, knowledge is considered certain by theologians today,” and like all of us was “limited and restricted.” This knowledge “was perfect in keeping with the concrete circumstances of His time and place, age and mission, and His dealings with people for His redemptive and prophetic mission” (ibid.). Jesus “grew” in this knowledge (cf Luke 2.40, 52) through observation and experience and from other people (ibid.).

    D) The Three Kinds of Human Knowledge were Distinct, but not Separate

    “[The] three kinds of human knowledge in Christ, required by what Scripture and revelation say of the God-man, did not hinder or exclude but rather complemented one another. The three were required on different grounds and existed on different levels, while uniting in one human consciousness for the purpose of Christ’s mission” (ibid., 938, 939).

    The three kinds of knowledge were the acts and possession of one human intellect and one human awareness; they were distinct, not separated. Their perfect harmony, however, remains mysterious; it is part of the very mystery of Christ.” (ibid., 939)

    Some modernists place less emphasis on Christ’s vision knowledge believing that it could lead to interference and the exclusion of genuine human experience (Encyclopedia of Religion, 25).

    14) Jesus’ ignorance of the Last Day - Christ knew the Last Day in His vision knowledge which is inexpressible in human concepts, not His infused knowledge. But did the Holy Spirit know the day and hour of the Last Day?

    At Mark 13:32 Jesus stated “But of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” “Son” in this context does not refer to the “God” of the God-man Jesus but the man and His human knowledge. St. Augustine offered a solution to the question of Christ’s limited knowledge that today is universally accepted, namely, that “Christ had no communicable knowledge of the Last Day because it did not pertain to His mission to reveal it.” “[One] could say that Christ knew the Last Day in His vision knowledge, not in His infused knowledge” (Catholic Encyclopedia, 939) (emphasis added).

    Augustine said this in the context of the question about human infirmities taken on by Christ; his solution here too has prevailed: Christ took all of these infirmities, except ignorance, which is not only a consequence but also a principle of sin. (ibid.)

    Roch A. Kereszty explains “The Word has known man and the fullness of human experience from all eternity through his divine knowledge. But in the process of the Incarnation, he empties himself of his divine “status,” renounces, it seems, the direct use of his divine consciousness and knowledge, and becomes aware of himself as man and learns as man gradually about God, himself, people and the world. He consummates his human experience in all these dimensions only in dying and rising to a new, definitive form of human existence (Fundamentals of Christology, 317).

    There are also practical considerations regarding Christ’s limited knowledge of the Last Day. Not only was it not necessary in order to fulfill His mission, but mankind’s awareness of the exact day and hour has the propensity for unrepentant man, subject to death at any moment, to put off repentance and salvation until the last possible minute. This would countermand Christ’s command to be constantly vigilant (Matthew 25: 1-13).

    The Jehovah's Witnesses contend further that even if, “as some suggest, the Son was limited by his human nature from knowing, the question remains, Why did the Holy Spirit not know?” (Reasoning, 409). The answer is that the Holy Spirit did know because He is one of the Hypostases or Persons of the Holy Trinity. Remember, usually “Father is not a title for the first person of the Trinity but a synonym for God” (Encyclopedia of Religion, 54). God is by nature triune and one of those Persons is the Holy Spirit. Therefore, when Jesus stated that only the Father knows exactly when the Last Day shall be, his reference to the Father, the triune God, by definition included the Person of the Holy Spirit.

  • BoogerMan
    BoogerMan

    @ aqwsed12345 - "the Father is "greater" because He is the source and origin = principle) of the Godhead."

    I thought the 3 trinity "entitities" were co-equal & co-eternal in power and substance! How can you heretically dismiss the basis of the trinity by introducing contradictory wordings which assert some kind of hierarchy between them?

    The Catholic Encyclopedia's summary of the trinity - "It's a mystery" - is bang on!

    It's a mystery why anyone believes such unscriptural theology, concocted by Rome.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    This is not heresy, as it does not establish any ontological inferiority or ontological subordination. Jesus Christ was also a real man; thus, he could have said and done all this as a man. Under the title of the Trinitarian procession (processio, ἐκπόρευσις), the Son is in a (conceptual) dependence on the Father, and this provides sufficient logical basis for the manner of speaking that the Son follows after and is "subordinate" to the Father in the economy; moreover, the Father, as the source of the Trinity, is αὐτόθεος, and therefore it is particularly appropriate to attribute the name "God" to Him in distinction from the other two persons. This should inform our understanding of Jn 17:3 and 1 Cor 8:5–6.

    Not every expression that tastes of heresy immediately contains heresy. Namely, the so often mentioned subordinate expressions most often allow for a completely correct orthodox meaning: a) From the standpoint of origin, the Father is first, the Son is second, and the Holy Spirit is third. This sequence does not imply a rank, essence, and temporal sequence within the Trinity itself; however, in human perception tied to time and in expression, it takes on a form of subordination; one who is for any reason placed later in the order, our discursive thinking and valuation are inclined to also place lower in rank; yet, one who speaks thus does not necessarily wish to deny actual essential and rank equality, or indeed teach heretical subordination. b) In the series of visible missions, the Son appeared in a later phase of salvation history, the Holy Spirit even later; whereas the Father is the eternal sender, who Himself is not sent; thus, from this perspective, it can be said that the Father is invisible, while the Son has become visible; similarly for the Holy Spirit. Therefore, if the early Church Fathers, when reasoning about the mysteries of faith, do not yet distinguish precisely between sending and manifestation, property and appropriation (proprium et appropriatum), their teaching is not heretical.

    Trinitarian appropriation (appropriationes) is the appropriation of some common divine excellence, i.e., property or act, to a particular person (Thom Verit. 7, 3.). This appropriation of common divine excellences, or Trinitarian appropriation, is allowed under two conditions: a) It must not attribute a common excellence to one person in such a way as to exclude the others; i.e., the appropriation must remain an appropriation and not take on the character of a property; otherwise, it would contradict the preceding proposition. b) It must be theologically grounded; that is, it must take into account the personal properties. Appropriation is only correct if it is related to the personal properties. In this interpretation, it is the universal conviction of theologians that appropriation is not only allowed but also very beneficial.

    Each divine person of the Trinity is not only the possessor but also the representative of their personal properties; thus, if we attribute related excellences to them, we also make our knowledge about them more direct, vivid, and enriched; e.g., if we attribute inventive, faithful, holy love for humanity to the Holy Spirit. Indeed, "if we always spoke of the undivided Trinity in an undivided way, we would never know it as Trinity." (Leo M. Serm. Pentec. 2, 2.) The ultimate reason for this is the limitation of our mind, which can only get a somewhat colorful and sharp picture of the divine persons of the Trinity by making each a separate object of contemplation, beyond what the Trinitarian constituting opposing relations say. The logical basis for this is given, on the one hand, in that a certain common divine property or activity in our finite consideration is more closely related to one divine personal property than another, e.g., our adopted sonship with the sonship of the eternal Word; on the other hand, in the fact that, as a result of the Incarnation, at least about the Son of God, we assert excellences that are no longer mere appropriations.

    In creation, and especially within the supernatural order, divine attributes and activities gain a very distinctive color, efficacy, and life when we bring them into direct and lively contact with a divine person. This is because, on one hand, the power and warmth of the respective Trinitarian person's personal attributes also radiate upon them. It says much more: The Spirit of God (the warming, vivifying, fertilizing Spirit) hovered over the waters, than if we simply read: God was over the waters. On the other hand, through appropriation, the natural or supernatural states of being also enter into mutual relations which mimic the Trinitarian relations, and reflect the rich fertility and harmony of the Trinitarian community of life onto creation. For instance, the relationship between freedom and authority, tradition and research, is seen in a completely new light once we associate it with the Word and the Spirit through appropriation.

    Therefore, it's not surprising that Scripture also makes ample use of appropriations. For example, the angel attributes the Incarnation to the Holy Spirit (Lk 1:35); Saint Paul usually attributes the name "God" to the Father, and the name "Lord" to the Son (1 Cor 12:4; cf. Rom 11). The Apostles' Creed attributes the work of creation to the Father, redemption to the Son, and sanctification to the Holy Spirit, thus integrating the pivotal facts of salvation history into the golden chain of the Trinity. The Church Fathers also widely use appropriations, and the great medieval theologians develop their system (L. Bonav. Breviloqu. 1, 6; Thom I 39, 7 8; beautiful deep appropriations concerning the Holy Spirit in Gent. IV 21 22).

    The main types of Trinitarian appropriations (according to Thomas Aquinas):

    1. From the perspective of divine being: According to Augustine, in the Father we see eternity (for he is without origin), in the Son beauty (the radiant image of the Father), and in the Spirit enjoyment (the seal of the holy love of the Father and Son) (August. Trinit. VI 10, 11; cf. Hilar. Trinit. II 1.). Furthermore: "In the Father shines unity, in the Son equality, and in the Holy Spirit the harmony of unity and equality. With respect to the Father, there is unity in all things, due to the Son there is equality, and due to the Holy Spirit, connection." (August. Doctrina chr. I 5.) Here, the relation to personal properties is evident: We claim unity about the thing without relation to anything else, represented by the Father, who is the principle without origin; equality is most strikingly reflected in the Son, who is the image of the Father; the Holy Spirit, as the bond of love between Father and Son, is therefore particularly suitable to represent the harmony that connects opposites.

    2. From the perspective of capabilities, we attribute power to the Father (He is the source of the Trinity), wisdom to the Son (the eternal Word, into which the Father speaks, utters His thought), and goodness to the Holy Spirit (the gift of love from the Father and Son). Related appropriation: the Father as God (self-existing); the Son as Lord (through whom all things were made); the Spirit as the Giver of Life and Comforter.

    3. From the perspective of activity: According to Saint Paul, "For from him and through him and for him are all things." (Rom 11,36) Here, the origin of things is put into an appropriative relation with the Trinity. That is, the Father as the source of the Trinity is most suitable to represent the founding principle and cause. The Son, as the exhaustive expression of the Father's self-knowledge, is suitable to represent the exemplar causes; furthermore, as (according to the Greek Trinitarian understanding and formulas) the mediator who leads the divine substance to the Holy Spirit, in outward activity he is also considered as the mediator (through whom all things that were made, were made). The Holy Spirit, as the completer of the Trinitarian self-giving and the seal of the love of the Father and Son, is suitable to be the personal representative of the purpose of every natural and supernatural activity. From this follow also the following frequent and productive appropriations: the Father as creator, the Son as shaper, the Spirit as completer; in the supernatural order, the Father as creator and giver of grace, the Son as the redeemer of grace, the Holy Spirit as the principle of individual sanctification; in all divine activity, the Father initiates, the Son continues, and the Spirit completes; or the Father commands, the Son executes, and the Spirit completes. Therefore, the "Son is the arm of the Father, the Holy Spirit is His finger" (the hymn's "digitus paternae dexterae" is an extraordinarily tender and expressive phrase for the entire Trinity). In worship, all prayerful and sacrificial devotion is directed to the Father, through the Son, in the Holy Spirit.

    In fact, God Himself is a mystery, since the finite mind cannot comprehend the infinite God. The fact that the trinity is a mystery does not mean that what is in Revelation cannot be understood by reason. The doctrine of the Trinity summarizes the biblical data: there is only one God, but at the same time there are three persons, who by nature are what only God can be, and who do things that only God can do. God is one God in three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This is not meaningless, it is just beyond reason, unprecedented in the created world: God does not resemble human ideas (cf. Acts 17:29). 1 Cor 14:33 does not speak about the being of God, but about the need for church order (i.e. he is the God of peace).

    "Mystery of faith" (mysterium fidei) in the full sense of the word: every religious truth that the mind, with its sheer natural talents, cannot either determine or understand with its specific concepts. Thus, it contains two components: The mind on its own cannot determine its existence, and even if it has gained knowledge of its existence through revelation, it is subsequently unable to justify it with purely natural reasons; moreover, it cannot define its meaning with specific, but only with analogical concepts. In other words: A mystery of faith is such a religious truth for which the mind on its own cannot determine either that the predicate "must" be asserted about the subject, or that the predicate "can" be asserted about the subject; for example, the one God is three persons; Jesus Christ is truly present in the Eucharist under the appearances of bread and wine. If either of these two components is missing, that is, if the existence of a religious truth can be recognized by reason, but its manner is not comprehensible (for example, God created the world), or its existence cannot be determined by reason, but once we learned it from revelation, its content is already accessible to reason (for example, Christ appointed a head for His Church; there are seven sacraments), then we are not dealing with a mystery of faith in the full sense of the word, a primary mystery, but only with a secondary mystery of faith.

    Those who define the mystery of faith as the incomprehensible, indomitable religious truth do not define it accurately. Because there is something incomprehensible, indomitable in every human knowledge; and that is why the deeper-thinking people of every age talk a lot about the depths and mysteries of existence, and praise the docta ignorantia (Nicholas of Cusa). However, this is something entirely different from the nature of the Catholic mystery. The world of nature hides secrets because our mind does not create its realities but faces them as givens and can only perceive them fragmentarily; the mystery of faith, on the other hand, cannot be measured by reason because it is from the higher, superhuman world of realities.

    The Bible uses the word "mystery" in two different senses. Generally, it tends to refer to an event or phenomenon in which God and man meet each other, and God gives Himself as a gift to man (Eph 1:9; 3:9-11; 5:32; Col 1:26). The other meaning of the mystery in the Bible is concealment and incomprehensibility (Rom 11:25; cf. 11:33-34; 1Cor 15:51; Rev 17:7). In this regard, theologians categorize the mystery of the Trinity among the so-called absolute mysteries (mysteria absoluta).

    The fact that the doctrine of the Trinity is a mystery of faith in the strict sense is indicated by the Jesus himself when he says: "No one knows the Son except the Father; no one knows the Father except the Son, and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him." (Mt 11,27.) John the Evangelist: "No one has ever seen God; the only begotten Son (the only begotten God), who is in the bosom of the Father, has revealed him." (Jn 1,18) Paul the apostle: "No one knows the things of God, except the Spirit of God." (1 Cor 2:11; cf. 1 Tim 6:16.) Since the Church Fathers Irenaeus and Origen, it has been unequivocally taught that the Trinity surpasses the mind. When the Arians boldly wanted to lift the veil that covers the inner nature of the Deity, their main weapon against their heretical position was reference to the mystery of the Trinity (Iren. II 28, 6; Origen. Princip. IV 1; Athanas. Serap. I 20; Cyril. H. Cat. 4, 7; Basil. Ep. 38, 4; Nazianz. Or. 31, 8; Nyssen. Or. cat. 3; Cyril. Al. Trinit. 3; August. Trinit. IX 1.).

    But what does this mean? It cannot be determined by the mere powers of the natural mind that the one divine reality is a trinity of persons.

    It's not a posteriori: for the a posteriori proof of God starts from the created world and reaches the absolute being through the thread of causality. It is already a theologically established truth that God's trinity as such is not manifested in creation; for God's external activity is the common work of the three persons: Therefore, the mind does not have a foothold in creation to recognize the one God subsisting in three persons as the absolute being.

    And it's not a priori either: we cannot deduce the Trinity from the nature of God known through reason; partly because we do not know the divine reality in a proportionate way, partly because experience does not provide any analogy for a triple relative subsistence of one substance.

    But even if we have come into possession of this mystery through revelation, we can neither understand nor subsequently justify it. For even if the analogy of human spiritual life suggests that God's absolute life cannot lack the richness that feeds on the contrast of spiritual activities and life contents, and even if the mind faithfully following the traces of revelation can penetrate a good way into the cloud hiding the Divinity, its laborious thought processes invariably lose their way at three landmarks in the impenetrable fog sea of the mystery:

    Initially, independently of the revelation, the mind cannot determine that there are only two categories of spiritual activities and capabilities, reason and will, and hence only two origins are possible in God.

    Initially, without revelation, it cannot determine and prove to be necessary that divine life activities are productive; because it is very conceivable from the outset that the object and proportional expression of divine understanding and volition is the independent infinite absolute reality, without the difference of opposing subsistent aspects.

    Independently of revelation, the mind can neither determine nor judge it possible that the one divine absolute reality can be the existential content of three subsistent aspects, which are only value-differently from it, but are really different from each other.

    While the Trinity is a supra-rational truth, it is not irrational, but completely rational. For the Trinity is God's self-revelation. But God is absolute reason, therefore this revelation is the radiance and evidence of absolute reason. God cannot give anything other than what is his essence. True, the Trinity is a mystery in the strict sense of the word, and therefore the human mind cannot fully demonstrate the logic that this mystery contains. But for this very reason, irrationality cannot be demonstrated from it either. The mind on its own can determine that God is immeasurably superior; this unattainability is always maintained for our mind, whether it reaches for it for understanding or for refutation.

    But the mind, illuminated by revelation, can demonstrate in a negative direction that the mystery of the Trinity does not contradict clear arguments, and in a positive direction it can catch a ray of the abundance of light bursting forth from it.

    The doctrine of the Trinity could only be shown to be irrational if it contradicted any logical principle, namely the principle of identity and contradiction. But this is not the case. We do not say that the same subject is one and three, but we affirm that the divine reality is one, and the persons are three; or we call the substance one and we state the subsistence as relatively three.

    Indeed, the content of the mystery of the Trinity (the triple relative subsistence of one absolute reality) contradicts experience, even the metaphysical findings derived from the material of experience. But its irrationality cannot be inferred from this. For every deeper thinking person has sensed that experience does not exhaust the categories and possibilities of existence, and that is why even within this world, the mind inferring from the present to the past, from the here to the far, is cautiously warned not to hastily infer from non-existence to impossibility. This is particularly true when the mind, leaving the ground of experience beneath itself, rises toward the regions of the absolute Being, where, according to the strict requirement of natural theology, every metaphysical concept must be re-evaluated with the triple method of God-knowledge. Therefore, it cannot be said that the relatively triple subsistence of the absolute Being is irrational; the less so, because reason also determines that God is above the sexes, therefore the Aristotelian categories cannot set a limit to his existential content and mode of existence.

    The mind can first and foremost pour its content into systematically processed concepts and thus speak appropriately about it; it can determine which expressions and phrases correspond to the content of the mystery and which do not.

    The general rule of speaking about the Trinity is: everything in God is one, where there is no contrast of relations; therefore, if the excellence of nature is the predicate, the subject can be nature or a person; if the predicate is personal excellence, the subject can only be a person. If we now consider that the concrete noun (and the male adjective in Indo-European languages) generally denotes the autonomous reality, the suppositum, hence the person in the doctrine of the Trinity, the abstract noun (and the neuter adjective) denotes the nature, it is generally not difficult to navigate and determine the correctness or incorrectness of a phrase or expression. Thus,

    a) we can say that the Father, as well as the Son and the Holy Spirit, are eternal, omnipotent, etc., but we cannot speak of three eternal or omnipotent entities.

    b) It is correct: the Son is someone else (alius) than the Father, but not: the Son is something else (aliud). It's correct: the one God is in three distinct persons (in tribus personis distinctis), not correct: the one God is divided into three persons (in tribus personis distinctus), as this endangers the unity of the essence.

    c) We can say: God begets, God breathes; the Son is God from God; because the concrete noun signifies the suppositum; but we can't say: divinity begets, divinity is Father. However, often the established language usage decides. The speech of the believer cannot roam freely like that of the philosopher; "our speech must be according to a definite rule, lest the liberty of speech should generate an impious belief about the thing itself". (August. Civ. Dei X 23.) If anywhere, here, in the mystery of mysteries, Paul's warning is appropriate: "O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter". (1 Tim 6:20. How much the sealed language usage of the Church decides is a telling example: the Latin Deus triplex is incorrect, but the identical etymon, dreifaltig, threefold is orthodox.)

    The believing mind may attempt, in the humble consciousness of its limitations, to illuminate some aspects of the mystery of the Trinity with analogies taken from natural or supernatural life. Of course, it must not forget that in these there will always be more difference than similarity; each one is only good for casting a faint, fading light on one aspect of the mystery. The Greek church fathers used more external analogies: the sun, its light, its ray; in a tree the root, trunk, flower; plant, flower, fragrance; source, stream, estuary; three torches that are ignited from each other (perhaps better: three torches whose flames merge). The newer catechesis and speculation also refer to other analogies: the three dimensions of space, the three moments of time (past, present, future); the three moments of processes: beginning, continuation, end; the three transcendent basic properties: one, true, good; the three basic categories of causality: real, formal and goal-cause (with the last two in relation to the three proofs of God the onto-, nomo-, teleological). The most fruitful analogy, however, is human spiritual life. The Greeks also stayed more on the surface here, as they associated the second divine person, the Word, with the spoken word, the Holy Spirit with the breath. The brilliant mind of Augustine reached the root of spiritual existence, and there he found the purest mirror image of the Trinitarian origins: "The Trinity gives a certain image of itself in the intellect and in the knowledge, which is the offspring of the intellect: the word it says about itself; thirdly, love; and these three are one substance. And the Begotten One is not less, for the intellect knows itself as much as its existence is; and love is not less, for it loves itself as much as it knows itself, and as much as it exists". (August. Trinit. IX 12, 18.)

    If we consider any of the aspects that make up the mystery of the Trinity as given from the revelation, we can almost unravel the rest along its thread; a clear sign of how powerful logic prevails in all the relations of the Trinity. For example, if we take this truth as given: there are two fertile origins in God, we can deduce that these origins are immanent, eternal, and substantial, that their product can only be a person and there can only be three persons, two of whom generate the third as one principle.

    Finally, the believing mind can reveal the philosophical, theological, and religious significance of the mystery of the Trinity.

  • Halcon
    Halcon
    This is particularly true when the mind, leaving the ground of experience beneath itself, rises toward the regions of the absolute Being, where, according to the strict requirement of natural theology, every metaphysical concept must be re-evaluated with the triple method of God-knowledge.

    Again, you're quoting essentially verbatim the ideas of Plato and Plotinus. Plotinus especially very practically inferred the concept of striving to 'rise' to the upper echelons of reality, and to finally become unified with the One

    The general rule of speaking about the Trinity is: everything in God is one, where there is no contrast of relations; therefore, if the excellence of nature is the predicate, the subject can be nature or a person; if the predicate is personal excellence, the subject can only be a person.

    It is true, that if all things come from one being, God, it follows that all the things that come from it carry its essence and substance. This is why Plotinus could say that we should strive to unify our 'inner divinity' with the divinity of the One, since it only became separated by means of the limitations of the human mind, which you also explain and quote from the philosopher above.

    Describing his relelationship with God using the terms "Father" and "Son" is of course a perceptive analogy, but this does not prove that the Son was created or that he is ontologically inferior to the Father, just as it is not in the human world.

    At best, we can say that both interpretations (Trinity and non Trinity) are technically correct. Trinity because all things come from God and carry his essence. Non-Trinity because Jesus himself said "the Father is greater than I"..his very own words. And they cannot simply be discarded as words for the less enlightened or ignorant. Even if you did, we can say Jesus was saying the same thing in two different ways.

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