I do not understand the universal issue anymore

psyco

To explain the universal issue we are often referring to a teacher and his/her students.

Let us imagine that a teacher (God) has an hour (everlasting) class to show his students (humans and angels) how to fix a broken clock (to reign).

One student (Adam) says he is able to fix it better independently, without the teacher's help (universal issue).

The teacher let him demonstrate that in front of all the others, but instead of an hour lesson he gives him only 5 minutes (death after a limited period of time) and he blocks one of the student's hands behind his back (imperfection).

If I were one of the other students watching I could think: but those were not the initial conditions the student was in when he said he could, and what would have happened leaving him more time and both hands free?

Am I crazy?

ExBethelitenowPIMA

That’s not the illustration the JWs use.

They say the Bible says the Satan challenged the right to rule in Eden. He implied that independent rule from God would be better.

The illustration is that a rebellious student challenged the teacher at least by implying that his was not the best way.

God the teacher could throw him out of the class, but then the rebellious ones could claim they were right.

So he lets them try it their way. They have to be given enough time so that nobody can claim in the future that if they had longer then independent rule from God could work

psyco

Both Satan (and demons) and humans sinned: why is Satan still perfect and humans are not? Thinking that God said you will die not mentioning imperfection...
Both Satan (and demons) and humans originally had an everlasting life perspective: why is Satan still living after thousands of years and all humans die only after 80-120 years?

ExBethelitenowPIMA

Is Satan perfect?

psyco

If he is not, God changed the original conditions (perfection) when Satan challenged Him as you said.

If you challenge my right to manage a company and I let you demonstrate it taking away part of your abilities (perfection), would I really be demonstrating to others that you are not able to or that you are wrong, or that you do not have the right?

Sea Breeze

@psyco

No, you are not crazy. Quite the opposite.

The WT uses this issue to try and explain away the fact that Christ died for you personally. Hebrews 9: 27 says that there will be a personal judgement after you die. The new covenant explained in Mt. 26: 27-28 says that the NC is "for the forgiveness of sns".

The legal exchange is in 2. Cor. 5: 21 "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him"

So, Jesus becomes the scapegoat for believers, just like when the OT priests would place the sins of someone onto the goat and send him away into the wilderness where he would shurely be torn to pieces by wild animals.

Jesus offers to be your scapegoat. Since the goat had no sins, he could die "in place of the sinner". This of course pictured Jesus who had no sins and was torn to pieces "for you", if you accept it...... which JW's don't. They reject the NC "for the forgiveness of sins at every Memorial".

This is why when we met Christians at the doors, they would look at us kinda weird and many would say something like, " Oh sweetie, Is Jesus your personal savior"? We would look at them like they were dunces. However, they believed that there would be a "personal judgement" just as Jesus and God's Word said there would be. Hence, the need for a "persona savior" and not a corporate one.

JW's believe in a group judgement, so this made no sense to us. JW's believe God is judgeing religions, not individuals.

The WT would like nothing better for people to waste their entire life trying to be "good enough" to prove some vague "universal issue" while ignoring the real issue for man - their impending death and subsequent judgement after they die.

God has taken care of this, but it requires faith, not works because the works pat of the exchange was finished at Calvary when Jesus said "it is finished" as he died.

True, Jesus did once say he that has endured to the end s the one who will be saved. But, remember Jesus spoke mainly to the Jews as their King. He words apply primarily to Jews, during the Great Tribultion. This was the context of that conversation. The Church (along with church-age promises) will already be gone by this time.

The apostles were given by God the ministry of reconciliation. The kingdom message is for during the GT, after the church is 'snatched away". JW's preach the Kindom message "out of season".

Scripture says that if church-age believers preach any other message other than the ministry of reconciliation, they are cursed. - Gal. 1: 8-9

The message of some vague universal issue was not taught by the apostles. It is a misdirection, mental sleight of hand; and many have taken the bait because they only read the parts of the bible that the WT approves.

"by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified" - Rom. 3: 20

Anony Mous

The universal issue isn’t unique to JWs, even Jews have a version of it and it is clearly exposed in the Book of Job.

The characters of Job and Sheitan in the Book of Job is right, God is a petty ruler and will allow people to die just to prove a point, the modern interpretation according to Rabbinic commentary of Job ends with: you don’t understand and you aren’t powerful, therefore you are wrong, whether that is just or unjust on behalf of G-d.

TonusOH

psyco: To explain the universal issue we are often referring to a teacher and his/her students.

I recall that they explained it this way: a young man, living in his parents' home, decides that he can make its own rules and live as he pleases. His parents explain that, if he wishes to do so, he should also go out into the world and make it on his own. Otherwise, he is using their resources and protection while shirking any responsibilities or discipline (ie, enjoying the benefits while others pay for it).

I can see the point you are making- the parable would imply that humanity wanted to show it could rule itself just fine, but God changed the parameters. So that seems unfair. But God could just as well say that His rulership comes with specific benefits (perfection, access to long life, a world that cooperates, etc), and even without those, humanity was using His resources (including the breath of life) to govern themselves 'without' Him.

And I guess this is also a point in His favor (sort of): If He couldn't make it work while giving humanity so many advantages, what chance did they have? Of course, there is a possible alternative- God decides to work with humanity to find a sort of behavioral sweet spot. The insistence that everything was perfect as-is not only was demonstrably wrong, but kept Him from making changes that might have made for a better world.

ExBethelitenowPIMA

JW doctrines day that first God (who never had a beginning) made Jesus the firstborn of all creation. Together they made other spirit creatures all who had free will.
Jesus was the master worker but they all worked on the creation of the universe. Then finally they made humans.
They say the Bible says the Satan challenged the right to rule in Eden. He implied that independent rule from God would be better.
The illustration is that a rebellious student challenged the teacher at least by implying that his was not the best way.
God the teacher could throw him out of the class, but then the rebellious ones could claim they were right.
So he lets them try it their way. They have to be given enough time so that nobody can claim in the future that if they had longer then independent rule from God could work
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peacefulpete

AnonyMouse...You are very right. The Job in the poetic dialogue section 3-27 is a very different Job from the prologue, (and from other redactional additions). He is arguing that all the traditional wisdom he was told was worthless. Patience, justice and piety are meaningless in the face of a God that tortures his creation. He wishes the world had not been created and he not born. He calls on the priests to invoke chaos monsters to prevent his birth and by extension undo all creation.

The madness of trying to incorporate an omniscient and omnipotent deity into the realities of the world.

I do not understand the universal issue anymore

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