Jehovah’s Witnesses Hunted Down And Deported

by Bangalore 17 Replies latest jw friends

  • fulltimestudent

    I've posted before on the topic of opposition to christiainity in China, mostly dealing with the terrible Christian Taiping revolt, against the Qing Empire, who then ruled China (?? so was China the entity we know as China during the 250 years (approx) that China was part of the Qing Empire - just an historical teaser). That war likely, caused more deaths that any other war in human history (some 35 million). It was a result of the British and French efforts to colonise China, and the various treaties made when the Chinese State was defeated. One provision was that christian missionaries had open slather in China. Much of the persecution and the atrocities that were committed in the later (so-called) Boxer rebellion in China was a result of christian missionaries having open slather and not being subject to Chinese law. Even though the later dictator, Jiang Jiesi (aka Chiang Kai shek) flirted with christianity, a deep dislike of christianity has remained a constant in Chinese thinking.

  • cofty

    It is not only Christians that China is persecuting. Approximately 1 million Uighur Muslims are being held in detention camps in Xinjiang Province.

    China and Russia are oppressive totalitarian regimes that punish their own citizens for thought-crimes.

  • Brokeback Watchtower
    Brokeback Watchtower

    I think you got to look at government as a business to successfully manage people for profitability on the land they claim ownership of with force if necessary so it should be of no surprise if it reacts in this way to get rid of a public pest and not cause too much concern to the world community in their business model which what make some more aggressive in dealing with this matter than some other government's business model. At least that's the way I see it and welcome rebuttal ,

  • OrphanCrow

    I could be wrong but...I think it might be important to understand where this article originates. The story comes from the website "Bitter Winters" which was founded by Massimo Introvigne.

    Introvigne also founded CENSUR (one of the abiding principles that CENSUR stands on is that brainwashing does not exist). And that "cults" are just "new religious movements". Introvigne's cronies include James T Richardson (lawyer), who has written supportive papers on the JWs and religious freedom.

    I guess what I am saying is that the article comes from a biased position. Neither Introvigne or Richardson will acknowledge that these "new religious movements" abuse the human rights of their members - instead they are more concerned with the rights of the organizations that are in control of their members. Religious freedom, to them, seems to mean that the right of the religious organization comes first.

    Introvigne proposes that a cult really isn't a cult unless it violates criminal law.

    One of the papers that Introvigne has published is Xie Jiao as “Criminal Religious Movements”: A New Look at Cult. Controversies in China and Around the World (link downloads pdf)

    Introvigne has some valuable research that is worth looking at, however, it might be prudent to be aware of his biases when reading his material:

  • fulltimestudent

    The difficulties in Xinjiang have a complex background, As far back as Roman times, the then early Chinese state, the Han Empire had established a presence in Central Asia, as this map indicates.

    The separation of the two empires (Rome and China) was then caused by the Sasinanian (Persian) Empire. Later in time, China and Persian Iran began a trading relationship that is still active (I've personally met a large group of Iranians in China - about 12 years ago- on a buying junket).

    The so-called 'Silk Road' (a term I do not like to use, as the 'East-West Trading Network' is a far better descriptive term to describe this network, which at times involved maritime trading) passed througn what is now called Xinjiang. At times in history, various Central Asian Turkic empires also held parts of this territory, From a contemporary viewpoint, a modern historical episode could BE deemed to commence with the rise of the Manchu (Qing) Empire. The Manchu were one of the various inter-related people that fought with what we now call China and at times established similar kingdoms to the Chinese Empire and later become integrated within the Chinese Empire. During the Manchu rise to power several groups like the Turkic people now called Uyghurs (And the Tibetans) became part of what is more correctly called the Qing Empire. That Empire included Han* Chinese also, with the ruling Manchu elite choosing to live in Beijing.

    There are nearly 22 million Muslims living in China. During the so-called 'Cold War' the American security forces attempted to foment unrest in, at least, two areas of China, Tibet and the south of Xinjiang (where most Uyghur live. I wont go into those American efforts (unless someone requests it), suffice to say that they have failed in Tibet, but have had a limited success in south Xinjiang

    Of the ethnic groups that live in Xinjiang, the Uyghur people number nearly 9,000,000. The second largest group are Han Chinese (see below) but there about 13 different nationalities, including Kazakhs, Kirghyz, Manch, Xibes, Tajiks, Ozbeks, Tatars and even some Russians. Some of these groups are small, some large. There are near to 1,4 million Kazaks and near to one million Hui. Most of these people are likely to be Muslim.

    One poster wants to see the,problems in Xinjiang as the Chinese government persecuting Muslims. I don't think that is true. Why? First of all, there are Muslims all over China, so why is this problem only occurring in Xinjiang? There are over 30.000 mosques in China, the oldest dating to the 8th century is located in Xian.If you know the history of Islam, you will appreciate that mosque must have been established close to the beginning of Islam, There are some in south China, close to port cities that were the centre of trading with the Arab bloc before Europeans even found the skill to navigate around Africa (truth is the early Portuguese navigators enlisted the help of Muslim Arabs),

    There are no reports of 'persecution' of Muslims in other parts of China, only in Xinjiang. So what's different in Xinjiang? I'm sure the 'experts' that know all about this, know that China has a border with both Afghanistan and Pakistan - both being centres of Muslim terrorism. Do these 'experts also know that there have been many terrorist incidents in Xinjiang, In one, more than 100 people were slaughtered by five knife wielding terrorists. In your country, what would be the result of such an attack? These attacks have been happening for at least 10 years. It is also known that a training camp for Xinjiang terrorists was established in Taliban held Afghanistan, The Chinese authorities would surely wonder what will be the result of a new government in Afghanistan with Taliban membership (its rumoured, but has not yet happened),

    So what about these prison camps? I do not doubt that there are such camps, but how big/many would they have to be to hold one million prisoners? But granting for a moment that there are a lot of prisoners held, and there is a program to re-train their outlook, isn't that what a lot of western people think should be happening in their own countries?

    One final comment. The program apparently being attempted in Xinjiang is not directed at Islamic thought. Neither, is the program that seems anti-Christian directed at all Christians, In both instances these programs are directed at anti-state activities. In the case of christian activity its directed at those who sneak into China using the pretext that they are English teachers, also at those groups that do not want to register their activity

    If anyone, thinks the Chinese government can control the thinking of 1.4 billion people, then they need some re-education in reasoning. A security guard, I once had a talk with (via an Australian Chinese interpreter) said, "No-one can stop Chinese people from doing something they want to. That was one of the messages in the cultural Revolution. Its "OK to Rebel." I've seen it happen here in Australia, PRC Chinese told they cant do something, and then arguing for a long time that they should be allowed to do it. But it can be a problem when your enemy adopts that thinking. If you wish, learn Chinese and start using the internet. It can, I'm told be pretty ferocious, But yes, there are a few topics that cannot be discussed,

    * However, even though the term Han is applied to those who the West sees as Chinese, the reality is that 'Han' really includes all the racial groups that over the centuries accepted Chinese civilisation. And, there we see the principle difference between East Asia and Europe. When the western Roman Empire collapsed (under the pressure exercised by Central Asian nomads, some of whom had pressured the Chinese Empire, Europe broke up into smaller Nation-States. In East Asia, the pressure came from peoples like the Mongols and Manchu's in the north and the Turkic peoples in the West, the Tibetans - and others - in the Southwest and Tai (Thai) people and Burmese people in the south. Over the centuries, areas controlled by each party, waxed and waned, and what you see today is contemporary China, with over 160 different ethnic groups in the border areas. Most of them living in autonomous areas. So almost the direct opposite of the European experience.

  • cofty
    But granting for a moment that there are a lot of prisoners held, and there is a program to re-train their outlook, isn't that what a lot of western people think should be happening in their own countries?

    For fuck's sake NO!

    Absolutely NOBODY in the west thinks that millions of people who disagree with them should be dragged from their beds and sent to concentration camps.

    China is a totalitarian dystopia.

  • Brokeback Watchtower
    Brokeback Watchtower

    You get no boo hoo hoo from me for the poor persecuted Christian's that have to leave, it is just a fact of life and life goes on. Russia and China think alike on this issue although Russia's a tad more aggressive, I ain't getting my panties in a twist over it that's for sure.

    I know I'm heartless sometimes that is a side of me I'm starting to love, why waste emotional pain of caring for every thing that is considered bad by some because of the way they view the world(subjectively). While wishing no harm to people and their sad deportation, and I hope they find better a better life elsewhere, this is a minor thing of importance, it only stresses I think the less aggressive stand of China. When you base everything from a religious tolerance point of view you become very bias on what you let into consciousness.

  • cofty
    That was one of the messages in the cultural Revolution. Its "OK to Rebel." - FTS

    Are you referring to Mao Zedong's 'Let a hundred flowers bloom' campaign? The one that turned out to be nothing more than a trap leading to the persecution and death of countless 'rebels' who dared to take him at his word?

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