Troublesome Trinity Verses Part 8

by hooberus 38 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    Jehovah saith unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, Until I make thine enemies thy footstool." Psalm 110:1 ASV

    Unitarians tend to look at Psalm 110:1 in this way:

    That the one God Jehovah exists in the form of only Person.

    That the Father is clearly called Jehovah in verses such as Psalm 110:1.

    That Jesus is shown to be separate from Jehovah the Father.

    Therefore Jesus is not Jehovah.

    Some Unitarians (though not all) also believe that Jehovah can only be in one place at a time, and the fact that Jesus is shown to be physically at Jehovah's right hand disproves his also being God.

    Trinitarians look at Psalm 110:1 in the following way:

    That the one God Jehovah exists in the form of more than one person.

    Trinitarians agree that the Father is clearly called Jehovah in Psalm 110:1

    Trinitarians believe that each member of the Trinity can be called Jehovah without exluding the others from also being Jehovah. Hense the Father being called Jehovah in Psalm 110:1 does not exclude Jesus from also being Jehovah.

    The fact that Jesus is shown to be separate from Jehovah the Father is in full agreement with the Trinity since the Trinity teaches that Jesus and the Father are separate persons.

    Trinitarians believe that Jehovah can be in more than one place at a time.

  • stillajwexelder
    stillajwexelder

    Hooberus -- you and I might have had our difference but please keep up the good work -- you are giving us all much food for thought

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    What about the fatct that the tetragrammaton is only applied to the Father in Psalm 110:1? Doesn't this prove that Jesus is not Jehovah.

    Trinitarians agree that Jesus is not the Father. However, the fact that the tetragrammation is only applied to the Father in Psalm 110:1, does not prove that Jesus is not also Jehovah. (unless one assumes the unitarian apriori that Jehovah exists in the form of only one person).

    Psalm 110:1 is a messianic psalm about David's Lord being at the right hand of the Father. The use of the word "adoni" for the second Lord does not exclude "adoni" the messiah from also being Jehovah.

    Indeed in other verses in the Old testament the tetragrammaton is appplied to Jesus.

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    Genesis 19:24 shows Jehovah in two forms at once:

    Genesis 19:24 Then Jehovah rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Jehovah out of heaven; ASV

    Amos 4:10-11 gives a similar account. Here Jehovah speaks of God (that overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah) in the third person!

    "I have sent among you the pestilence after the manner of Egypt: your young men have I slain with the sword, and have carried away your horses; and I have made the stench of your camp to come up even into your nostrils: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith Jehovah. I have overthrown `cities' among you, as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, and ye were as a brand plucked out of the burning: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith Jehovah." Amos 4:10-11ASV

  • Dean Porter
    Dean Porter

    Hooberus,


    you speak about a unitarian APRIORI VIEW that God is one person. You say this as if the Trinitarian View is

    the view that is not APRIORI.


    I think you have got this reasoning backwards. The Monotheism of unitarians is surely the same monotheism held by the Jews as taught in the Old Testament. This Monotheism believing that God is One Person IS the original orthodoxy as held by God's covenant people.


    Surely it is the case that the onus of proof is on the Trinitarian to PROVE that God is three persons; not for unitarians to prove God is NOT three.


    You say that the use of ADONI for the second lord does not exclude it refering to the Messiah as being God.


    Well, I think it does exclude that view as ADONI is not used in the O.T. to refer to God.


    Adonai is used of God , not adoni. Adoni is used of men and angels.


    In another post you refer to Genesis 19:24 as an example of two persons addressed as seperate Jehovah's.


    This begs the question : If there is ONE God, but THREE Persons; how many Jehovahs are there ?


    Dean.

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    Dean Porter said:

    You say that the use of ADONI for the second lord does not exclude it refering to the Messiah as being God.


    Well, I think it does exclude that view as ADONI is not used in the O.T. to refer to God.


    Adonai is used of God , not adoni. Adoni is used of men and angels.

    I have heard the claim that adoni is never applied to God in the OT. My strongs concordance shows that it is a form of Hebrew word #113. This word (#113) is applied to God in many places. However it could be that the strongs is not specific enough and is grouping words by parent words. According to strongs Adonai is strongs #136. Word #113 (a different word than #136) is applied to God in many places, though this may possibly a slightly different form than in Psalm 110:1.

    However lets assume that adoni is always applied to men or angels. Since Jesus is a man at the right hand of the Father ("Let thy hand be upon the man of thy right hand, upon the son of man whom thou madest strong for thyself." Psalm 80:17) the word "adoni" could possibly refer to his human lordship. However I don't think that this would exclude his divine lordship also.

    Jesus at the right hand of the Father is called "man" and "son of man" (titles of humanity), however we know from other passages that He is "God" and "Son of God" also (titles of divinity).

    some of your other points on monotheism etc. I may address later.

  • Dean Porter
    Dean Porter

    Hooberus,

    for your information, off the top of my head. The word number 136 in your concordance is probably Adon.
    which is the ' parent ' word for Lord as you put it.

    There are derivative forms of it such as Adonai & Adoni. It is to be noted that both words are spelled the same in hebrew but are clearly differentiated by means of the ' vowel pointing '.

    Note what a Jewish Exegesis website says of this matter in a quote from one of their articles on Psalm 110.

    DISCUSSION ON PSALM 110 taken from Messiah Truth Website

    In the rest of the verse, the Hebrew term (adoni; pronounced "ah-do-NEE"), my lord/master, is mistranslated in the KJV and in many other popular Christian Bibles as my Lord, thereby alluding (via the capital "L") to Jesus, G-d the Son in the Trinity. The Tetragrammaton, , the ineffable title of the Creator that is written in the Hebrew in terms of the four-letter sequence (yod-heh-vav-heh), Y-H-V-H, appears in vs. 1,2,&4, and is punctuated with vowels to be pronounced as "a-do-na-i". This is translated in the KJV as The LORD, alluding to G-d the Father, the second personage in the Trinity, by using all capital letters in order to distinguish it from The Lord, G-d the Son. The actual word (A-donai), another one of several common titles used in the Hebrew Bible for the Creator, appears as the first word in v. 5. It should be noted that in the Hebrew, both (adoni), my lord/master, and (A-donai), G-d, are identically spelled, but are punctuated with different vowels. The KJV, having made the "my Lord" mistranslation of [(adoni), my lord/master] in v. 1, had no choice but to render [(A-donai), G-d] in v. 5 as "The Lord" (i.e., G-d the Son)........

    ........(1) Since the specific term of interest is (ladoni), all 24 citations are shown. Moreover,
    since Psalms 110:1 is one of nine verses among these 24 citation which contain both the
    Tetragrammaton , and the term , all nine verses are marked with an asterisk (*).

    It is evident from the data in Table IV.B-2 that the KJV translators understood rather well that the term (adoni), with and without attached prepositions, means my lord or my master. Specifically, regarding the term of interest in Psalms 110:1, (ladoni), in 23 cases the KJV rendered it correctly as to/unto my lord/master, and only in Psalms 110:1 they translated it as unto my Lord, with the capital L, which imparts to it the desired Christological significance. This fact becomes even more obvious when one considers the nine cases in which both the Tetragrammaton, , and the term (ladoni) appear in the same verse. On eight occasions, the KJV has LORD & lord/master, and only in one case, at Psalms 110:1, the combination LORD & Lord appears in the KJV.

    According to both Biblical and Modern Hebrew, there is no connection between (adoni) and , The L-rd, because the appellation (adoni) is never used to address G-d; it is used exclusively to address a (mortal) man. ( end of quote ).

    There is really no doubt about it, Adoni is not the same type of lord as the LORD Adonai.

    You say that if this verse and use of Adoni ' could possibly ' just refer to his earthly lordship ( by which I take it that you are conceeding the point as you don't provide any proof against that conclusion). Therefore, I think the point is made that Psalm 110 did not give the Jews any expectation of a DIVINE MESSIAH or indeed GOD in the Flesh.

    It is also evident that this verse does not picture Jehovah the Father speaking about Jehovah the Son as the tetragrammaton only appears addressed to the first LORD not the Second lord.

    This is such an important point to understand because when the N.T. writers like Paul use the greek word Kyrios to refer to Jesus ; they are simply meaning Adoni and are not meaning Adonai. Thus by calling Jesus Lord in the greek they are not equating him with the Lord God Jehovah.

    The confusion is that the greek has only one word for Lord whereas the hebrew has several which mean different things.

    You say you 'may' address other points that I made at another time. However, I would like you to address the question I put to you in my last post and I would prefer if you gave me an answer now.

    The question was ... If there is one God, who is three persons, then HOW MANY JEHOVAHS ARE THERE ?

    cheers,

    Dean.

  • hooberus
    hooberus
    According to both Biblical and Modern Hebrew, there is no connection between (adoni) and , The L-rd, because the appellation (adoni) is never used to address G-d; it is used exclusively to address a (mortal) man. ( end of quote ).


    Assuming that adoni is used exclusively to address a "man" as your quote above says, I remind you of my earlier point which addresses this:

    "However lets assume that adoni is always applied to men or angels. Since Jesus is a man at the right hand of the Father ("Let thy hand be upon the man of thy right hand, upon the son of man whom thou madest strong for thyself." Psalm 80:17) the word "adoni" could possibly refer to his human lordship. However I don't think that this would exclude his divine lordship also."

    If the title adoni refers to Jesus as a man, this does not disagree with the Trinity as the Trinity teaches that Jesus is both God and man. The issue thus becomes does the word "adoni" mean that Jesus is only a man? Does the word adoni restrict him to being a human lord only?

  • hooberus
    hooberus
    There is really no doubt about it, Adoni is not the same type of lord as the LORD Adonai.

    I am not saying that Adoni is the same type of lord as YHWH adonai. My point was that I don't think that a possible human lordship term excludes the messiah from also being divine.

    You say that if this verse and use of Adoni ' could possibly ' just refer to his earthly lordship ( by which I take it that you are conceeding the point as you don't provide any proof against that conclusion). Therefore, I think the point is made that Psalm 110 did not give the Jews any expectation of a DIVINE MESSIAH or indeed GOD in the Flesh.

    I have not said that Psalm 110:1 necessarily itself shows a divine messiah. I am discussing psalm 110 in order to respond to unitarian arguments, not as a trinitarian prooftext.

    It is also evident that this verse does not picture Jehovah the Father speaking about Jehovah the Son as the tetragrammaton only appears addressed to the first LORD not the Second lord.

    I never said that it did. Remember my earlier comment:

    "What about the fatct that the tetragrammaton is only applied to the Father in Psalm 110:1? Doesn't this prove that Jesus is not Jehovah.

    Trinitarians agree that Jesus is not the Father. However, the fact that the tetragrammation is only applied to the Father in Psalm 110:1, does not prove that Jesus is not also Jehovah. (unless one assumes the unitarian apriori that Jehovah exists in the form of only one person).

    Psalm 110:1 is a messianic psalm about David's Lord being at the right hand of the Father. The use of the word "adoni" for the second Lord does not exclude "adoni" the messiah from also being Jehovah.

    Indeed in other verses in the Old testament the tetragrammaton is appplied to Jesus."

    This is such an important point to understand because when the N.T. writers like Paul use the greek word Kyrios to refer to Jesus ; they are simply meaning Adoni and are not meaning Adonai. Thus by calling Jesus Lord in the greek they are not equating him with the Lord God Jehovah.

    Where NT writers quote from Psalm 110 (adoni in the OT) they may simply be showing thast Jesus is the messiah. However there are also many places where NT writers quote from OT passages about Jehovah, and call Jesus "Kyrios" in this sense!

    The confusion is that the greek has only one word for Lord whereas the hebrew has several which mean different things.

    Yes, it depends on context. Sometines Jesus is possibly called "lord" in a human messianic sense. Other times He is called "Kyrios" as in Jehovah.

  • hooberus
    hooberus
    You say you 'may' address other points that I made at another time. However, I would like you to address the question I put to you in my last post and I would prefer if you gave me an answer now.

    The question was ... If there is one God, who is three persons, then HOW MANY JEHOVAHS ARE THERE ?

    There is only one Jehovah.

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