What does the Trinity doctrine teach?

hooberus

The Athanasian Creed

We worship one God [Note: the Trinity is monotheistic teaching only one God] in trinity, and trinity in unity, neither confounding the persons[Note: the Trinity does not teach that the Father and the Son are the same person or that Jesus prayed to himself] nor dividing the substance [Note:Though they are different persons they are the same God.]. For the person of the Father is one; of the Son, another; of the Holy Spirit, another. But the divinity of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit is one, the glory equal, the majesty equal. Such as is the Father, such also is the Son, and such the Holy Spirit.

The Father is uncreated, the Son is uncreated, the Holy Spirit is uncreated. The Father is infinite, the Son is infinite, the Holy Spirit is infinite. The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal, the Holy Spirit is eternal. And yet there are not three eternal Beings, but one eternal Being. So also there are not three uncreated Beings, nor three infinite Beings, but one uncreated and one infinite Being.

In like manner, the Father is omnipotent, the Son is omnipotent, and the Holy Spirit is omnipotent. And yet there are not three omnipotent Beings, but one omnipotent Being. Thus the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. And yet there are not three Gods, but one God only. [Note: the Watchtower has many times claimed that the Trinity doctrine teaches that there are three Gods see for example: Let God be True, also Knowledge that leads to Everlasting Life] The Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, and the Holy Spirit is Lord. And yet there are not three Lords, but one Lord only.

For as we are compelled by Christian truth to confess each person distinctively to be both God and Lord, we are prohibited by the Catholic religion [Note: Catholic here means "universal" not "Roman Catholic"] to say that there are three Gods or Lords. The Father is made by none, nor created, nor begotten. The Son is from the Father alone, not made, not created, but begotten. The Holy Spirit is not created by the Father and the Son, nor begotten, but proceeds. Therefore, there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.

And in this Trinity there is nothing prior or posterior, nothing greater or less, but all three persons are coeternal and coequal to themselves. So that through all, as was said above, both unity in trinity and trinity in unity is to be adored. Whoever would be saved, let him thus think concerning the Trinity.

hooberus

Here is an additional part of the creed.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation
that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ .
For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess,
that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man.
God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds;
and Man, of the Substance of His Mother, born in the world;
Perfect God and perfect Man,
of a reasonable soul in human flesh subsisting;
Equal to the Father, as touching His Godhead; [see John 5:18]and inferior to the Father, as touching His Manhood.[note: this explains John 14:28]Who, although He be God and Man,
yet He is not two, but one Christ;
One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh,
but by taking of the Manhood into God;
One altogether; not by confusion of Substance,
but by unity of Person.
For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man,
so God and Man is one Christ.
Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell,
rose again the third day from the dead.
He ascended into heaven, He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God
Almighty,
from whence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
At whose coming all men shall rise with their bodies
and shall give account for their own works.
And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting;
and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
This is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully,
he cannot be saved.

gambit

My mom, who is still a dub but has faded somewhat in the past few years, allowed me to talk about religions and beliefs the other day... After waiting 25 years for the moment, I didn't hesitate... I went right after the trinity !!!

I had just read something similar to what you posted, and decided to explain things in simplified terms...

I told her that the belief in the trinity was no different that the belief in the family. There is a father, a mother and a child. They make up the family. Without anyone, you are not a family, yet each individual is seperate. The family will always exist, in some form or another, and relationships amongst the family members will change over time, and in fact, the child may even be considered a father's peer/friend at some point in life.

Anyway, I kept stressing the 3 individuals of the family and how that is really all the trinity is saying. It's not saying that there are three gods, no more that there are three families. One God, One Family.... 3 Spirits, 3 Members... All equal yet a hierarchy of membership, so on and so on....

Does this make sense to anyone? I am trying to figure out if I got through, if it is confusing, or what?

gambit

Brummie

3 Spirits

You make some good points gambit, but I dont think Trinitarians believe there is three spirits. God is not quantifyable. Trinitarians believe one God is revealed in 3 persons but that doesnt constitute 3 spirits.

Brummie

LittleToe

Gambit:
Yeah... what Brummie said
"God IS a spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth." (John 4:24)
Well put, though.

I have to say that I groaned when I saw this thread title ("Oh no! Not another Trinity thread!!"), but couldn't help myself [click].

Hooberus:You know that you're inviting a bashing, right?

link

Hooberus,

I have the greatest respect for you and your beliefs but this:

"Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly ……….."

is exactly what the JW’s teach.

Can you explain why it is so important to believe this Athanasian Creed, or any other man made doctrine for that matter, in order to obtain salvation?

link

mizpah

I don't think that even trinitarians would equate God with Family. Otherwise, many unitarians would accept the concept, at least, with the relationship of the Father and Son. It took centuries to define the trinity doctrine. In contrast, the Bible simply reveals a relationship of a Father to a Son. This is no "mystery." Every human can understand that relationship. So, why go "beyond what is written?"

Phantom Stranger

I think the family comment was an analogy, which is what's required to attempt to explain the Trinity doctrine.

Since we don't have any naturally-occuring triune life forms in our field of reference (conjoined triplets?) we have to construct some sort of model to attempt to comprehend it. The map is not the territory.

As with all matters of faith, they require...well, faith - otherwise they would be called something else.

I have heard a lot of explanations intended to "simplify" the Trinity. For me, it's still like the electoral college and the designated hitter - made sense to someone, but it wasn't me.

funkyderek

"Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly"

Hmm. You'd think Jesus might have mentioned it at some stage then. Are all three persons of the godhead so absent-minded?

Yerusalyim

I like the Athanasian Creed a lot. Athanasius was instrumental in saving the early church from Arianism...which taught Jesus as a created being. By "necessary to believe correctly" I would attribute that to not believing in three seperate gods. Neither the Catholic nor Orthodox faith would say that JW's aren't "saved" (though we don't use that term). In fact Catholic teaching specifically states that even those who...through no fault of their own...do not know God...can be saved by a special grace. All salvation comes from Christ...but we will not limit him on how he works out that salvation. In other words...there will be Catholics and Protestants and JW's and Jews and Muslims and Buddhists and Hindus, etc etc etc in heaven.

The JW's seem to tell me that I believe in three gods...I only believe in one. The Trinity is a mystery...yet the JW's say that all has been revealed...there are no mysteries...so I ask them to simply explain to me how God can be eternal (they can't...it's a mystery) how God can love us even though we don't deserve that love (they can't it's a mystery), etc etc etc.

What does the Trinity doctrine teach?

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