According to Jehovah's Witnesses, who will be saved?

by Vanderhoven7 35 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze
    What are people being saved from?

    I was in field service once with the Presiding Overseer and when he got back to the car, he was boasting that when a HH asked him if he was saved, he snapped back, "saved from what". He said the man just stared at him. Everyone in the car had a big laugh.

    I don't recall Hebrews 9: 27 ever being quoted at a KH or publication.....ever.

    "it is appointed unto man once to die and then judgement". We are saved from judgement. Jesus was judged in our place.

    Just as the ancient priests put the sins of the people onto a goat, and then sent him into the wilderness to face certain death, God puts our personal sins onto the Lamb of God "for us".

    Jesus is our scapegoat, if we accept the offer. This is why people at the doors were always asking us if Jesus was our personal savior. It was because they knew from attending any decent church that there will be a personal judgement, after we die.

    As JW's, we were never taught this. In JW theology, you self-atone just by dying .... regardless of whether or not you want it.

  • waton
    waton

    what if this whole salvation/ not dying idea is a misreading of the purpose of life in the universe?

    Dying , particularly late in life is good for the species, striving for betterment, progress.

    fertile seniors have pushed our species into longevity, methuselah of old fantasies notwithstanding.

    God Believer:

    nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you; but you were washed,

    These past "personality traits" were abandoned changed, finished. not just swept under the carpet by the ransom. about the danger of them to recur in a dedicated christian, it mentions that it would amount to sacrificing the Christ anew.

    The ransom is not the carefree cover all that some make it out to be, not saved no matter what.

  • truth_b_known
    truth_b_known

    Christian Salvation Breakdown

    1. God creates humans.
    2. God creates laws.
    3. To act in a way that violates God's laws is called "a sin". (Whereas violating man's law is called "a crime".)
    4. Laws contain punishments for violators of the said law.
    5. The punishment for humans who commit a sin is that, after their body dies, their consciousness continues with all memories in tact and God submit their consciousness to eternal damnation.
    6. The first 2 humans commit a sin buying stealing fruit from God's "Tree of Knowledge".
    7. God sentences the first 2 humans, whom He directly created without their consent, to 1) die in the flesh, 2) their "souls" to eternal damnation, 3) all their unborn offspring who do not consent to any of this to death and eternal damnation.
    8. God sends himself to Earth in the form of a sinless human to die as a sacrifice to offer to Himself so that He does not choose to send humans in the form of souls to eternal damnation if they accept Him, His commandments, and His sacrifice as their savior.

    I guess my next questions are -

    If I am saved what exactly happens to me after I die? I don't have a choice as to whether or not I have to play this game. I get to be punished for the violation of my ancestors. So, what is in it for me to become saved? Specifically - what exactly is life in heaven like? It sounds like I am applying for a job where I only find out what my salary and benefits are after I accept employment and start working.

    What exactly is eternal damnation like? Maybe it's not so bad. It's called "being saved," but the person who is sending people to hell is the same person who does the saving. That sounds rather odd. This all sounds a lot like an active shooter willing to shoot himself to save us all from being shot to death if we would just accept him as our savior.

    If a firefighter rushes into a burning house engulfed in flames and dies while saving the whole family inside that firefighter made the ultimate sacrifice - he gave his life so others might live. Now imagine if 3 days later that same firefighter came back to life and was perfectly healthy. Is it still a sacrifice?

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    TBK,

    Good questions. First some concept clearing.

    1. We are a Tri-Partite being. As such, we will be conscious forever. The question is where? Is it total abandonment in "outer darkness" is it literal hell fire? I recommend side-stepping the details of that question. One is horrible, the other is worse. Life without God is going to be existence without experiencing anything that could be considered good. There is no other possibility. No sunshine, no waterfalls, no baskets of puppies, no fulfilling relationships, no love. God is the author of good. If we reject God (the real one as opposed to the one we sometimes imagine) we are rejecting ALL that is good.

    So, we don't have a choice about whether or not we will forever be conscious (google terminal lucidity and out of body near death experiences for plenty of circumstantial evidence that our consciousness is separate from our body). This should impress upon us the seriousness of the topic.

    But Jesus made it clear that we do have a choice about where we will spend eternity. It is a not a location, it is a Person. If it is with God, it will be all good all the time, forever, in heaven, on earth and probably everywhere in between.

    2. The second concept to get is that unlike what the WT teaches, where they imagine that people sin because they are weak, or because they don't go to enough meetings, or field service etc.; people sin because they have a sin nature. It is our nature to sin, so we do. We do not naturally want God as our father. We want the object of our devotion to be an idol, religion or an organization. We want one that is performance based so we can a least take a little bit of credit for our good fortunes.

    3. God wants a real relationship with us, not based on performance. I married my wife and at times her performance is just not there. Same goes for my performance. We love each other because we are one flesh. I love my sons, not based on their performance, but based on the fact that they are my own flesh. We are family. Love is natural, because it is the nature of family. But, we are not born as part of God's family.

    So, if God is after our hearts, our love, and is seeking to make us part of his family that surpasses performance, then how do we deal with such a God? How exactly do people such as ourselves have a relationship with the possessor of infinite wisdom, knowledge & power? In our broken flesh we are scared of him, we hide from him, we try to work for him to appease him, & we ignore him. Notice that all of these reactions are not ones we would see in a healthy marriage or in healthy family relationships. This kind of response is maladaptive, resulting from a perverse and foreign sin nature.

    So, it is really our sin nature that is so offensive to God. This is what he wants to destroy, not us....because it is what separates us from him and makes it impossible for us to have a normal relationship. The way we are now, is not satisfying to either one of us.

    Enter: Free Will.

    Did I choose my wife? Or, did she choose me? The answer is Yes. If it was one sided, then love would be impossible. Love MUST be given by CHOICE. Love is the one thing God cannot create (outside of his own triune nature) BY HIMSELF. Love is by nature a collaborative affair. So what is the basis for a relationship with God. If its not performance, begging, manipulating, bargaining or appeasement, what is it?

    The basis is the same as any relationship - BELIEF. I believed my girlfriend and so I enter into a marriage contract with her. 18 years later, I still believe in her and she in me. Good times or bad, we are still going to discharge our duties, and we believe that.

    When Jesus was asked what must they do to be saved, the first word out of his mouth was "believe". Like in my marriage, I cannot always perform, but I can always believe.

    I can argue with God, reason with him, try to manipulate him and try to appease him... all totally unnecessary and offensive. But, what he wants is for us to believe him. Belief precedes sin (and goodness for that matter). When Eve sinned, she first chose not to believe what God had said. Only then did she act externally in a manner consistent with what had already happened internally.

    Because of what Jesus did, he restored the ability to choose. In a sense, we are all now jettisoned back to the same moral position that Eve was in. She didn't have a sin nature and thus was free to choose. So, while we cannot choose to be free of the sin nature, we can choose to believe God. If we do, God says that's good enough for him and he immediately destroys the sin nature in our spirit and gives us a new one. It is a down payment that we can experience in the here and now on the full payment when he destroys our sin nature in our flesh and soul when we are resurrected or raptured, if we live till then.

    The question is not why should we choose God. The real question that many deceptions seek to hide is, why would anyone seek to live eternally in the absence of anything that could be considered good? The gates of hell are all locked from the inside.

    God... endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath...He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, ...not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles. (Romans 9) That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. - Ephesians 2:7

    God has made it clear, that he fully intends to honor our choice on whether or not to believe him. Those that do, he will parade as his Trophy... believers are trophies of Grace... just as I consider my sweetie a trophy wife.

    “I will call them My people, who were not My people,

    And her beloved, who was not beloved.”

    “And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,

    ‘You are not My people,’

    There they shall be called sons of the living God.”

  • truth_b_known
    truth_b_known
    Life without God is going to be existence without experiencing anything that could be considered good. There is no other possibility. No sunshine, no waterfalls, no baskets of puppies, no fulfilling relationships, no love. God is the author of good. If we reject God (the real one as opposed to the one we sometimes imagine) we are rejecting ALL that is good.

    There are places on the Earth where the neither the Bible or Christianity has ever been heard of. Everyday, for generations upon generations, the people live happy lives and experience both "good" and "bad". People are born, live, and die never knowing of the God of the Bible. It doesn't phase them one bit.

    There is a saying in India - "The only atheists are the people who attended Catholic school."

    people sin because they have a sin nature. It is our nature to sin, so we do. We do not naturally want God as our father. We want the object of our devotion to be an idol, religion or an organization. We want one that is performance based so we can a least take a little bit of credit for our good fortunes.

    People "sin" because they have desires and wants that are harmful. Greed, aversion, and ignorance are the roots of these desires and therefor are the roots of suffering. This is not necessarily inherent in us and we can extinguish these desires on our own through practice. Therefor we can choose not to have a sinful nature. Adam and Eve were created without a sinful nature and still chose to sin.

    The Law of Cause and Effect also establishes that our actions determine the response of the universe. Refrain from what is bad. Do what is good. Act in such a way as to benefit all beings. Do this and receive this. We make our own heaven and hell. The suffering we experience is made by us and therefor only we can save ourselves. There is also no need for anyone else to punish us. We punish ourselves.

    why would anyone seek to live eternally in the absence of anything that could be considered good?

    "Eternal" by definition means to have no beginning or end. So, if I am an eternal "soul" inhabiting a body where did my soul reside prior to my conception? Does this also mean that I was never created as eternal means no beginning or end?

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze
    There are places on the Earth where the neither the Bible or Christianity has ever been heard of.

    More good thoughts TBK.

    But that doesn't have anything to do with your personal judgement does it? If God has made the basis of righteousness (being morally debt-free) - belief; then I'm sure that he will judge accordingly whether or not anyone has "believed" to the best of their ability. I believe he is a righteous judge, and will do what is right. That is his nature. But, he is that standard, not me.

    I think of the thief on the cross. At first both criminals were railing against Jesus. But, for one of them, after he hung there for a while and thought about it, decided that he wanted to be saved. I don't believe that he knew hardly anything of a theological nature. Yet, Jesus honored his choice. Why would not God honor the same from a native american who cried out to "The Great Spirit"? I believe he is a righteous judge, and will do what is right. That is his nature. And what is "right" seems to be some mixture of law and grace. The cross is where Law meets Grace. But, there is not a legal imperative to save any of us.

    The heart of the Lord, is Love, ,adoption, relationship, inheritance etc. But, the problem is that most of us don't want to be saved. God is eventually bound to honor that choice as well, as much he would like not to. The price of Free Will, is very high. So, while judgement is not the heart of the Lord, it is part of his position. Reluctantly, he will discharge that duty. If he forever never did anything about it, that would make him an enabler of sin and its author by default. But, as it is in order to preserve free will, God has chosen to judge sin as opposed to making us all robots incapable of love.

    The suffering we experience is made by us and therefor only we can save ourselves. There is also no need for anyone else to punish us. We punish ourselves.

    Some truth here. The Law of attraction is real and similar to what you say. But, when we try to take this principle too far we run into ludicrous scenarios like; lets just get rid of the police, courts and judges because after all sinful people will attract a lot of negativity into their lives and thus punish themselves. Would you like to get rid of your local police?

    The suffering we experience is made by us and therefor only we can save ourselves.

    I believe that biblical dispensations or ages are designed to answer a specific existential question, to answer man's objection as to why he cannot or will not obey God.

    People couldn't trust God because they didn't have enough information as to what he wanted. So, he gave us the Law. After 1500 years and man's failure to obey the Law, he gave us the age of Grace. Man now complains that he can't obey God under Grace because of the environment. Some people just live in the wrong place, have a bad government, family, spouse etc. So, the Millennium Age will finally address the final question of nature vs. nature. Even under perfect safety, and righteous government with no corrupt politicians, people will still seek freedom from God.... because the sin nature will still be there for those people. They are not glorified. I believe many will have a new spirit, like Christians today. But their children may not even have that. At the end of that period the wicked will be like the sands of the sea shore.

    The Law, while good in and of itself is also a curse. Because we cannot keep it. Jesus became a curse for us.

    Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree

  • smiddy3
    smiddy3

    There are places on the Earth where the neither the Bible or Christianity has ever been heard of.

    And more specifically Jehovah`s Witnesses

  • LoveUniHateExams
    LoveUniHateExams

    Q. Who will be saved, according to WT doctrine?

    A. Only those people who are active JWs, people who are attending meetings and going out on field service.

    So, we're looking at maybe 4 or 5 million people out of a global population of 8 billion.

    Can't have enough of laughter emojis, say Mumbaikars - Times of India

  • Hopeless1
    Hopeless1

    Sea breeze

    I love your reasoning on this subject, although I completely have faith in God, personally I find it hard sometimes to believe Yeshua would want to save me, - but what you say is logical, and very helpful to me.

    Many thanks.

    J.

  • Gman2001
    Gman2001

    Only those with a JW stamped ticket....

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