Why Faith is Self-Defeating (page 3)

Island Man

The requirement of faith also exposes the fact that the God of the bible is man-made and not a real supremely wise, truth-loving being.

A real supremely wise being that values truth would not value faith as a virtue because faith leaves people vulnerable to being deceived and is no way of determining what is really true.

Every single major religion uses faith as the cop-out to justify belief in the unproven. They even use faith to justify belief in claims that can be, and have been, scientifically disproved!

So faith actually serves as an excuse to believe lies and pretend that they are true. A truly wise supreme being would know this and would not require faith of his worshipers knowing what it leads to.

But humans who want to deceive and control other humans by getting them to accept their unproven claims - religious con-men - they value faith, because it serves their ends. It gets people to credulously drink, hook, line and sinker, their ridiculous claims while telling themselves that they are good and noble for being credulous!

You see the claims of religion cannot stand up to scrutiny and logic so religious con-men had to come up with a way of demonizing scrutiny and logic in order to survive. So they came up with the idea that God wants people to whole-heatedly believe and accept fanciful claims without doubting. And they also demonize doubt. The whole concept of faith was created by very early religious con-men as a means of countering logic, reason and evidence.

It's so fricking obvious! Faith is not a virtue but the enobling of credulity to get people to believe insanity. Faith is no way of knowing what is true but a way of justifying believe in just about any crazy claim. Why can't religious people see right through it?!

fulltimestudent

But then there's Romans 10:17:

New American Standard Bible
"So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ."

And when Paul wrote those words, the only 'word' of Christ was verbal.

Although, the KJV and a few other translations are slightly different.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Therefore faith is from the hearing ear, and the hearing ear is from the word of God.

And at that point in time, that surely meant the OT.

But, I guess, the point is the same - faith follows something heard. It does not, in Judeao-Christian theology, exist prior to the "hearing' of the message.

So the old AId book became very adventurous and claimed, "Faith is based on concrete evidence."

Although,

"Kierkegaard (is claimed to have) said that faith without doubt is simply credulity, the will to believe too readily, especially without adequate evidence, and that “in Doubt can Faith begin.” All people involved in spiritual practice, of whatever persuasion, must confront doubt at one time or another, and find a way beyond it to belief, however temporary. But “faith is not equivalent to mere belief. Faith is the condition of ultimate confidence that we have the capacity to follow the path of doubt to its end. And courage.”

In the end, that harmonises with the wisdom advice of Zheng Yi, (about 1000 years ago) who taught that:

"A student must first of all learn to doubt."

Island Man

Here's a fictional scenario that highlights the folly and danger of faith:

A deeply religious man starts hearing a voice in his head. The voice tells him that it is God. "God" tells him that it would make a great nation out of him if he obeys his commands.

The man tells others about it, but they don't believe that it's really God talking to him. He doesn't seem crazy though, everything else about him is normal except for him hearing the voice. He develops strong faith that it really is God that is talking to him.

One day he has a terrible seizure followed by a coma that lasted a couple days. Doctors scan his brain and discover a tumor in his brain. Because of the location of the tumor, doctors know that it is the cause of the auditory hallucinations the man has been having.

They inform the man but he refuses to accept it. He has faith in his "God". By faith, he perceives that the doctors are misled by Satan. He perceives that they were sent by Satan in a bid to destroy his faith. It was a demon that entered into him and gave him the seizure. The whole incident was all an elaborate machination of Satan to get the man to renounce God! This he perceives clearly, by faith.

Later, "God" speaks to the man and asks him to sacrifice his three year old son to him. His wife and son come to the hospital to visit him shortly after this and when his son hugs him, the man, by faith, grabs his son by the head with both hands and snaps his neck.

jacobm

Another thread by Cofty? Dang bro/sis. You are getting out there and living a full life, right?

Island Man

Here's a real life example from the news, highlighting the folly of faith.

Another thread by Cofty? Dang bro/sis. You are getting out there and living a full life, right?

I don't know JACOB Meza but I hope he is not one of those theists that attempt to shame voices of reason into silence by saying things like he said. No fuller life can be led than making intellectual contributions aimed at transforming human society for the better, in this case, by exposing the folly of faith.

Simon

There are some instances of benefit when it comes to faith, but it only works if it is combined with ignorance:

Medical placebos !

Yes, the placebo effect is measurably real and apparently is growing (mostly for Americans). It relies on a combination of faith and ignorance. If people know they are taking a placebo then it is dramaticlly less likely to work but if they believe they may be taking a real drug ... then a number of people gain genuine benefit from it (but not for all types of treatments).

I think the benefit that some people think they get from their religion is really a placebo effect. They believe their religion is of benefit and so it is of benefit to them. Perhaps deep down they realize this and it's why they object so vehemently to facts and evidence - it will destroy their faith and with it the mostly side-effect free drug that they enjoy.

Anders Andersen

Faith is about believing without seeing. "The evident demonstration of realities that arenot seen"; "Happy is he that believes without seeing."; "Walk by faith not by sight"
Every time JWs and others say that faith in not blind, THEY ARE LYING against their own holy book!

I always thought my (JW) faith had a solid foundation: reason, logic, evidence.

Until I found it didn't. And speaking to my JW friends to explain my exit, in the end they all said something like 'but this is faith we're talking about...there is no evidence/it's not evidence based.'

I always thought JW faith is evidence based, as opposed to false religion who believe anything without evidence. Well no difference there. They all cherish their make-believe like children and their little imaginary tea parties and super heroes.

And they think I am the crazy one...

cofty

I'm living a very full life Jacob M thanks for your concern.

This morning I coached a junior football team - I have been coaching for over 20 years and am one of the most qualified coaches in my region. The I did a couple of hours metal detecting and found a 750 year old silver coin of Edward I. Then my wife and I went to an Italian restaurant. We had a walk around the town walls before going for a coffee and then went to watch "Spotlight".

Now I am home again and might make a couple of contributions to the forum to help theists and potential theists get over their superstitions.

I hope you have also had a productive day.

cofty

i thought faith was to do with trust - Ucant

That is a different meaning of the word faith. It's the one christian apologists always want to talk about but it's not the subject of this thread.

Heb.11 says "without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists"

Before you can trust somebody you first have to believe that they exist. How do christians know god exists?

Partly they would claim they have evidence but partly they have faith that he exists. If it was all based on knowledge there would be no need for faith in that sense. You would still need faith in the sense of trusting god but you would not need faith that he exists, as Hebrews says you must have in order to please him.

Faith is regarded as a virtue in the bible. Jesus said to Thomas "Happy is he who does not see and yet believes"

Now here is my challenge, and I think it is a knockdown argument against faith.

How would you show that the god of Jesus is true rather than Vishnu of the Hindu faith?

You would have to try to show that there is more evidence for the god of Jesus. But if the evidence for Vishnu is less than that for Vishnu then that just means that Hindus need more faith than christians. Since faith is a virtue, Hinduism wins.

Therefore faith is a self-defeating basis for believing in any particular god.

cofty

Clicking dislike is not the same as responding to a challenge.

Why Faith is Self-Defeating

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