Why Faith is Self-Defeating

by cofty 56 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • cofty

    The god of christian theism values faith.

    "without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists" - Heb.11

    Faith and evidence are inversely proportional - the more evidence there is that god exists the less faith you need in that proposition and vice-versa.

    So how can a christian criticise any other faith-based belief? For example they can protest that all the evidence is against the claims of Scientology, but that just means that Scientologists require more faith than christians. Since faith is a virtue, Scientology wins.

    Therefore faith as a basis for belief in any specific god is self-defeating.

  • Landy
    I know that. You know that ...
  • OneEyedJoe
    This is a bit of a tangent, but I'm not even completely sure that, in isolation of other factors, the claims of scientology really require more faith to believe than the claims of fundamentalist christianity. It's just easier to believe the christian claims because there are more people who do, and it's seen as "normal." But is Xenu any more implausible than the god of the bible? Are thetans any more implausible than angels and demons? At least scientologists accept evolution.
  • cofty
    Please feel free to replace the word Scientology in the OP with the "false religion" of your choice.
  • Finkelstein
  • sparrowdown

    Well, faith that something will be true before you know it's true does help with confirmation bias, so in that sense the scripture is spot on.

    If you have faith in the existence of something or someone before you have absolute proof of it existing then you are more likely to look for and find evidence of proof that it exists and vice-versa. So in a sense the scripture is self fulfilling. Though you have the accounts of the famous "road to damascas" moment for Paul where no such faith (in this case jesus being the messiah) existed first, but it was Paul that was approached not the other way round so apparently faith isn't needed if a heavenly being approaches you. Sort of celestial "don't call me, I'll all you."

    So, of cousre anyone is better off going into any investigation completely neutral without any pre-existing bias if their desire is to find truth not confirm wishful thinking. Pretty hard when most people have unconscious leanings in one direction or another.

    Also, I understood the scripture quoted to mean that any "faith" would be in the existence of God himself not - faith in your faith in a religion. The word and concept of "faith" is bandied about willy-nilly applied to obviously and ridiculously untrue things - unfortunately.

  • Finkelstein

    Shouldn't faith now be contrived as being capriciously irresponsible in reflective view of what mankind knows of the world in which we live and of are selves ?

  • Finkelstein
  • Slidin Fast
    Slidin Fast

    Good Evening Cofty,

    How about this example of the place of faith. This is from "Imitate their Faith" published by JWs. It refers to the Baal Worshipers v Elijah ultimate god-match on Mount Carmel (live on SKY). It was the subject of much nodding and head shaking at the mid-week meeting last night.

    19 “Jehovah is the true God! Jehovah is the true God!” they cried out, all of them. (1 Ki. 18:39) At last they saw the truth. However, they had not as yet shown any faith. Frankly, to admit that Jehovah is the true God after seeing fire fall from heaven in response to a prayer is not an impressive demonstration of faith.....Those men were well beyond the reach of mercy! So Elijah ordered that they be executed, and executed they were.—1 Ki. 18:40.

    20. Why are the concerns of modern-day critics about Elijah’s execution of the Baal priests unfounded?

    20 Modern-day critics may decry the conclusion to this test on Mount Carmel. Some people may worry lest religious zealots use it to justify violent acts of religious intolerance. And sadly, there are many violent religious fanatics today. However, Elijah was no fanatic. He was acting on Jehovah’s behalf in a just execution.

    So, if you have just seen fire from heaven you can't show faith the existence of the "true god" has just been demonstrated to you. Therefore you have no faith, therefore, it follows You Must be Killed! "Elijah!". "Yes Lord". "SLAUGHTER THEM! they have no faith"

    Some one else can explore the logical fallacies of that one, I can't get my breath.

  • bobld

    Without faith it is impossible to please god....................Heb 11.

    Every time I read the bible it makes me laugh hahaha.I don't have faith in God and if he is not pleased so what,

    I don't give a shit.Do I care no,nada so what is he going to do about it. I have faith in myself,if a build a house it will withstand the rains,winds and what ever.

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