Need some suggestions.... thx

by thebeliever 8 Replies latest jw friends

  • thebeliever

    I am disfellowshipped and recently went to the KH. I have an older brother (32 yr) who I was very close with who desperately wants me to get reinstated. I was disfellowshipped (10 years ago) for smoking cigarettes (which I did just to have an "offense". But nonetheless, have no interest in ever being a witness again.) I believe in God not an organization of men.

    Anyway, this morning he called me to ask me why I haven't come to any more meetings. His wife is having their first baby in Dec. and he said if I keep coming I can get reinstated by then.

    I said, why do I need to be reinstated just to see your baby. I can still babysit.

    He said, "No you can't. I've been going back for forth about it, but then during the CO's visit in our elder/ministerial servant meeting he asked everyone... If the wife of an elder wants to call their disfellowshipped son, who no longer lives at home, once a week to see if how he's doing, is this appropriate?"

    My brother said, one elder answered, that "Yes, if she just wants to check up on him and she's only calling once a week."

    The circut overseer said, "No, your wrong. It is inappropriate. The society says that we only communicate with disfellowshipped ones, if it is a matter of necessary business."

    My brother went on to tell me that disfellowshipping is part of the process, of my being humble and having humility... that I made a mistake and I have to take the punishment metted out to me.

    I said I disagree. Nowhere in the bible does it say you can't call your family once a week to check in on them! or that i can't babysit your child. (My fear is that he would unknowingly hand over his child to one of those hidden pedophiles, but ...)

    He then said he didn't think he was phrasing it right. He was going to look the information up and come over tonight to show me.

    This is going to be our first conversation where I let him know that I just don't agree with that "organization", call the society, their interpreting of how one should serve god and their interpretation of something like disfellowshipping.

    I respect the fact that my brother wants to be a Jehovah's Witness. There are many other things that our friendship used to center around that were not bible based and many things to share and talk about besides the bible. It pains me that he really believes "shunning" me to be scriptural.

    I've already searched on some information, but does anyone have any suggestions on where I should start. I don't know what to start with. I don't want to just go on the attack. Should I suggest that he visit the forum? I don't want to turn him off or make him think i'm an apostate and then he'll NEVER talk to me. I know he has questions, but he was a born-into like me.... I just don't want to alienate him, but he is so in awe of the elders, and CO's and everything the "society" says. I was thinking to maybe draw his attention back to the bible and not focus so much on the organization. Perhaps try to create within him, the possibility of seeing the organization and what "God" has actually "said" separately. The only problem is dealing with that NWT! I looked at the information about the inaccuracies in that translation, it get's kind of deep.

    Anyway... any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I guess I'm just a little nervous. I love him so much. He was so good at playing baseball when we were younger. He jokes that Derek Jeter's living his life. He's such a sweet person. I know this hurts him, and what hurts me is that he thinks it's what god wants him to do. That JW's suffer through not talking to their loved ones believing it is "martyr-like", and unfortunately there is no compensation. He will spend the rest of his life not talking to me and then we will grow old and die. How can I change this?

    PS. I appreciate Gary''s (your) comments that the same society that strongly advises not to have children this close to "the end" also says shunning is scriptual, yet they are chosing to have children anyway. That is one point I will make.

    Thanks in advance for your comments.

    thebeliever (I'm not very concise, am I? Thanks for reading my "book"!)

  • Gopher

    Hi Believer, welcome to the forum!

    If you were to suggest to your JW brother that he read any websites or information that didn't originate with the Brooklyn headquarters, his resistance would immediately kick in and he would tune out (unless he's actively thinking about leaving the J-dubs, which doesn't seem likely at this point). He would probably find coming to a site like this repugnant or intimidating.

    So the best you can probably do is drop an idea here and there to gradually sway him to the reasonableness of what you're saying.

    Nowhere in the bible does it say you can't call your family once a week to check in on them! or that i can't babysit your child.

    That's entirely reasonable of course, but as you probably realize, a JW thinks his/her eternal welfare is on the line with each human interaction that they encounter day by day. They're always on guard. Being that you were "in da troof" when younger, you probably remember what I am talking about.

    Anyhow, there have been several posts in this forum -- just do a search on "disfellowshipping" and you may gain some points to talk about.

    In this thread listed here, look in particular at the last 2 posts. They contain good points that JW's never even think about.

    Lotsa luck!

  • Gadget

    Hi thebeliever.

    which I did just to have an "offense".

    What made you make an 'offence' just to be df'd? What part of being a jw did you not like? Do you think that after 10 years not being a jw you would be better able to cope with it and be able to fake and get reinstated? Or do you think that you will notice more things and it will bug you even more?

    If you want to try and talk your brother round, ask him what it would take to persuade him that the witnesses were wrong. Or if you've been out for 10 years, ask what new light there has been, including the new direction from the CO about df'd people. If the elders/wtbts are just Jehovahs spokesman, why have they been telling everyone to do something that is wrong, and need new light to change things to do Jehovahs will?

    I would be very careful in how strongly you put it across, because if he thinks your apostate he'll run a mile from you. Ditto if he knows your on here. But if you question things in the right manner it may be enough to make him think. It might not be enough to bring him out of the jws, but it may make him think enough so that he doesn't shun you anymore.


  • PurpleV

    There is a wonderful place, a web site where there are ONLY QUOTES from WT literature, no commentary. You can safely direct your brother there. The quotes are designed to highlight the flip-flops in doctrine and policy. Here’s one from the "How to Treat DF/DA" category:

    Link to main page:

    Link to DF/DA category:

    After a whole lot of articles showing complete shunning of DF/DA peeps, you come across this shocker:

    *** Watchtower 1998 December 1 p.17 Defending Our Faith ***

    What About Slanderous Publicity?

    15 At times, Jehovah's Witnesses have been the target of distorted information in the media. For example, on August 1, 1997, a Russian newspaper published a slanderous article claiming, among other things, that Witnesses categorically require members to 'reject their wives, husbands, and parents if these do not understand and do not share their faith.' Anyone who is truly acquainted with Jehovah's Witnesses knows that the charge is false. The Bible indicates that Christians are to treat unbelieving family members with love and respect, and Witnesses endeavor to follow that direction. (1 Corinthians 7:12-16; 1 Peter 3:1-4) Even so, the article was printed, and many readers were thus misinformed. How can we defend our faith when we are falsely accused?

    Ask your brother to explain that, and ask him the next time policy changes again and "allows" communication, will he apologize for all the lost time??

    Also ask him when he’s going to stop being such a wuss and think for himself. JUST KIDDING DON’T SAY THAT LOL

    Good luck, let us know what happens.

  • Swan
    Nowhere in the bible does it say you can't call your family once a week to check in on them! or that i can't babysit your child.

    This is an entirely reasonable response from you. I would use this. Ask him what scriptures the CO used to support his comment. Tell him you remember an article in the Watchtower saying that being cordial to DF relatives was the Christian thing to do. It even likened helping out a DF person broken down on the road as being like the good Samaritan. (of course this was back in the 1970's before they changed the light again, but don't tell him that, let him research it for himself).


  • SixofNine

    I think you're going to have to be honest with him. However, I know of one way to be honest, that might give him a workaround. Tell him that on further life reflection, you see, as clearly as the nose on his face, that you would NEVER EVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES have accepted and believed in the religion your father pressured you to accept and believe as a small child. Tell him that you had VERY strong warning signs even as a child, but you ignored them because of a love for, and a tendency to accept blindly, your father and his beliefs; what else can a child do?

    In other words, you aren't really disfellowshipped, because you were never really a witness in the first place. Your baptism? You wanted to do the right thing, but you really didn't understand things, you just thought that's what faith was. This has worked for one of my family members, and if they ever come after me, I feel pretty sure it will work for me. Even though I didn't get out till fairly recently at the age of 37, it is 100% true; that religion is so "not me" that it isn't even funny, the fact that I believed it wholeheartedly for 36 years is irrelevant, I wouldn't have believed it in any other circumstances. Your mileage may of course vary. Every family is different.

    A slight variation on this theme, is that if df'ing (and subsequent shunning) is for the purpose of moving someone to come back, and you've decided not to come back, what's the point? Does he think he has some new information that you aren't aware of to change your mind?

    Don't let the word apostate slip into your conversation, and if he uses the word, wrinkle your mouth and eyebrows like this and act as if you don't even quite know what the word means, but it couldn't possibly (bat eyelashes) be relevant here. You're an actress, you should be able to pull that off, lol.

    Nope, he's not even close to being ready for this forum yet. Or even to hear very many specifics about the logic that makes you sure you don't want to be a witness, for that matter.

    btw, I really enjoyed reading your other book.

    Good luck and, you know the situation better than us of course, so only take any of our advice that really fits yourself and your family.

  • thebeliever

    Thank you for the info. as well as some really good suggestions. I have decided to take it slow with him and I told him tonight was not a good night, (because I just couldn't pull it together.... It makes me so sad inside, and angry and I need to talk to him when I'm not "angry".

    to six: Interestingly enough, I don't feel that my baptism is valid and I'll tell you why....

    When I was 11 or 12, my best friend (who's father was also an elder) suggested I get some of my mom's cigarettes for us to smoke. Sounded like a good idea, so I did and we tried it. I thought it was horrible, but she had done it before and whatever. A couple of times she skipped class at her school and came to mine to see me... we hung out with some "worldly" boys from my school and kissed a little bit... no big deal. However... since I had become very conscious of not doing things that made Jehovah unhappy and since I told my dad "everything". I told him about it.

    He handled it calmly, but told me that he was going to have to call her parents and meet with a judicial committee because we were something called "approved associates" - yet, NONE OF US KNEW THIS. (my brother who tried a cig. with us found out he was one too.) I was shocked to say the least. And I thought it would just be between me and my dad.

    But the next week there we sat, my dad (elder), her with her parents (another elder), and the commitee (3 other elders) to discuss what happened and what led up these things happening. It was very nerve racking, we were all sort of scared and felt really bad... but imagine my disbelief, when she looked me in my face and said, " I never did that. Why are you saying this about me? I never skipped school. i never kissed anybody." (I just want to interject, that this poor girl was adopted by these witnesses, and they told her her mother had been a prostitue. I personally believe this elder might have sexually abused this girl. He once made her pull down her pants and spanked her bare bottom when she was 13. She was extremely promiscuous, did indeed live a double life, was eventually found out. Had two kids by the time she was 18, which she abandoned and the same couple now raise.)

    But back to the story.... Needless to say, her parents believed her, my dad believed me and a horrendous rift was caused between our families that would never be repaired. There were other repercussions now that certain people thought I was a liar, a bad seed, and other witness youths thought I was a rat, so I was somewhat alienated even within the congregation.

    But what did come out of this meeting was realizing that we were this really special, fun thing called "approved associates" because we were children of elders (this is like some sort of pre-baptism type dedication, one makes until they're "old enough" to get baptized, (i believe the society has now discontinued this practice) and since we were children of elders of course we had to set an example that was above reproach and our parents thought with all the indoctrination we had been given (we would hardly be able to think for ourselves.).and to some extent they were right. What the judicial committe did to us, since my brother corraborated that we all did indeed "inhate" was removed our privileges. We could not comment at meetings, participate in the theocratic service school and lead a prayer at a bible study or something else, I don't remember.

    I think shortly after that is when I began cutting myself. I would unscrew the flaps on my dad's razor, take the blade out, run my wrist under cold water and hav at it.

    When I turned 15 and was deemed old enough, I went ahead, just walked the plank and let them dunk me. I would have done it sooner, but dad felt 12 was too young to get baptized... but not too young to unknowingly be an approved associate. It's crazy. I mean, it was as if i had already been baptized. They even removed our privleges!

    Therefore, i feel that my baptism wasn't valid, because it was done in the light of this approved associate business, that I was given no choice in. Make sense?

    I therefore also feel my disfellowshipping is not valid. Comments?

  • Francois

    I think your brother, like you, needs to think for himself and forget about that phony cult who after 120 years of trying STILL can't get even one prophecy right.


  • Loris

    Your reasoning is just as convoluted as that of the WTS. Makes perfect nonsense. There have been a few here that have been successful with a nullification of baptism route. Do a search. If you can prove that your baptism was invalid using their silly rules then go for it. That would make you a worldly unbeliever just like 99% of the worlds population. J-dubs talk to them every day.


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