When did the Great Crowd start forming?

by Vanderhoven7 35 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  Dunedain

  I think you are all missing the point. . . . . . . . . . . .

  Rutherford WANTED more WINE, for HIMSELF. If you made, like 99% of the JW's members NON-Partakers, the great crowd, then thats less wine being drunken by the "masses" of JW's, and MORE wine for the JUDGE.

  This is spiritual knowledge, at its pinnacle. Yes, dear friends, THIS is the "sacred secret". Let ALL who rejoice in Jehovah, NOT drink the wine, that the "great Judge", may have his fill unto this life and unto the very ending of the world.
• 

  Half banana

  Vanderhoven, Rutherford's flash of inspiration as you put it, has an interesting origin which I found in a book in the British Museum Library. (Religious Sects by B WIlson 1970 Wiedenfeld and Nicholson p.194)

  I suggest there is no tangible evidence for such thing as a ”great crowd” or “other sheep” they are simply evolved religious fictions but the development of JW doctrine is interesting nevertheless ...truth on the other hand never needs to evolve.

  Since dogma doesn’t grow on trees; it is nearly always borrowed from earlier versions, often recruited to serve a new purpose but in this case Rutherford stole the idea to meet the requirement of a failing older teaching about the 144k which was becoming implausible, for it was projected that soon there would be more than that number of JWs! How then to fudge the figures?

  An earlier incarnation of two hopes was proposed by a Watchtower Bible Student called Alexander Freytag who after the failure of the 1914 teaching and the death of Russell, looked again at a new meaning in the scriptures. Being a threat to Rutherford's imperial power ambitions, Freytag was expelled from the organisation. As B Wilson put it:

  "Freytag intending men to overcome death and separating after the 1914 disappointment, started a new sect based on altruism borrowing from Spencer and Kropotkin...i.e. health and millennialism, the law of just deserts".This included the groupings of a heaven-bound little flock (petite troupeau) and a great crowd (Armee de l'Eternel) who would live on earth.

  This splinter group, which I believe still exists today in continental Europe, mangles Russellite teachings with a health-conscious, non-smoking life style. As with Russell and the Watchtower control, Freytag's death was marked by an acrimonious leadership takeover and yet further splintering.

  Freytag's concept of 'two hopes' was hastily re-cycled to resolve a doctrinal failure in 1935 by the crapulent Rutherford.(I think crapulent describes him well!) Freytag’s doctrine was foisted on the newly named Jehovah's Witnesses... and the dumb sheep followed the drunken shepherd.

  So there it is, Rutherford stole the idea of two hopes from an apostate.
• 

  myelaine

  "Rev. 6:9-11 these are souls under the alter who were slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.

  
  The GC have washed their robes but there is no indication that they were slain for their testimony...the language and scene is more evocative of a last minute "revival". (Yay!!)"
  
  

  Further evidence to the claim that the souls under the alter are not the same "group" as those in the GC is found in 1 corinthians 16:51-54. The souls under the alter are numbered as those who DIED for the word of God (pre-tribulation)

  At the last trumpet there will be a group who will be "translated" without dying.(taken out of the great tribulation)...THEN the angels will gather together the elect [jews] from the four corners of the earth (matthew 24:29-31, rev. 7:1,3...)
  love michelle
• 

  myelaine

  This study has done two things for ME: corrected an error in my understanding and confirmed a deeply held conviction.

  
  

  I have NEVER held belief in the "rapture theory" in the sense expoused the mainstream church. I just couldn't reconcile the God I know with the teaching that at some point all believers will be whisked out of the way...chaos ensues and the "left behind" are on their own. It just didn't jive and to be frank...I'm sorry but, I DID think that people who held those views were unloving...in the same "camp" as those who where so vividly described by a fellow poster as thinking that those who didn't believe at the coming of the Lord were "on a greased pole to hell"...this study has shown me that indeed, there are people taken out of the GT because of their "conversion" ...praise God!

  
  

  This study has shown me that the God I know DOESN'T leave the world to unbelief and wrath. The elect jews are those who are protected and COMMISSIONED during this great tribulation to bring both jew and gentile from all nations, tribes, languages and tongues to reconciliation with God..the GC...brought OUT OF the GT. AMEN.

  
  

  If this study of scripture relevant to: the souls under the alter, the great crowd and the elect jews during the GT has drawn false conclusions I welcome correction.

  
  

  love michelle
• 

  Crazyguy

  myelaine , I was in error, I was thinking about Rev 5:9-10 where it describes the great crowd as the ones that would reign on earth not the 144k because their described again at Rev 7:9, these scriptures are a throw back to the old testament at Exodus chapter 19 where Israel becomes a holy nation. The 144k maybe not included in this or anyway maybe a different group or subgroup with in the great crowd. Some say they represent the singers that went before the army. Anyway I was thinking on a different line of thought on my previous posts.
• 

  myelaine

  dear Crazyguy...

  given the roll call scene of the gathering of the elect and the time frame of the scene, that the 144,000 are sealed with the implication that they are priests...evangelist even, to people of all nations to bring them into reconciliation with God and out of the GT I believe this is more like a military array. Very structured...reminiscent of numbers 10:1-9...but it certainly does REQUIRE that the 144,000 are obedient to the covenant of exodus 19:5-6.