Evolution Deniers - An Endangered Species

by cofty 98 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  John_Mann

  john-mann
  correct me if wrong - but I get the impression that you only go back 4,000 years for the 'qualia' that you think entered humans at that point?
  as far as I know complex human settlements surely go back further than that?

  About 4.000 BC somewhere in Mesopotamia.

  My view about the origin of consciousness is based on Catholic tradition and the Bicameralism theory from Julian Jaynes.

  The modern human behavior starts about 50.000 to 40.000. This is the mark of the development of high level (mortal) sensitive soul in humans.

  Technological innovation is a key to compare unconscious species. Some species of Homo have no technology innovation for ages and became extinct because this inability.

  Human settlements goes back to 20.000 BC. Ohalo is the oldest settlement ever found AFAIK.

  Jaynes argues that language and civilization are prerequisites to consciousness. There's no shortcuts to his theory and I suggest to read his books for a better understanding of how unconscious men were able to develop language and primitive civilizations.

  His theory is centered in the origin of consciousness as being a natural phenomenon, but he tries to keep an open mind view and mention several possibilities including the metaphysical one (my view).

  He says the Book of Amos in OT was written by a bicameral (unconscious) man. And points out the difference between Amos and Ecclesiastes for instance.
• 

  Ruby456

  such theories tend to obscure the knowledge gained from interactions through mimeses of nature and what occurs naturally. I pretty well satisfied with what theories I have already developed myself. And I prefer to research my own topics. I really don't believe in sudden enlightenment - for me these are just revisionist interpretations - but hey each to their own and whatever makes you happy
• 

  Ruby456

  oops - read up about what you are talking about John-Mann - sorry to dismiss it so easily. but there is one thing I do take exception to and that is the early date 4,000 years ago. I think that if anything like what you say happened it happened a lot lot earlier - - however I agree that hallucinogenic things had something to do with this sort of expansion of consciousness - indeed there is evidence that humans learned about the hallucinogen properties of plants from animals - or that chimps achieved a cross over to humanoid species by means of such plants - I mean what other explanation could there be for our need for spirits (literal spirits that is)

  edit: I understand that Daniel Dennett supports the view you mention too
• 

  Caedes

  My view about the origin of consciousness is based on Catholic tradition and the Bicameralism theory from Julian Jaynes.

  How do you square that with the really strong evidence of self awareness in other animals?
  
• 

  John_Mann

  Yes, Dennett is an advocate of this theory. Dawkins tend to agree too.

  Independently if consciousness is metaphysical or physical anyone agrees that there's a historical origin.

  Some believe consciousness started with the human brain. But our physical brains were around way before civilizations. What these people were doing during all that time if they had our same mind power?

  That's why I think history shows a sudden (and recent) appearance of consciousness.

  Consciousness is a very small part of the human mind IMHO. Buddhism, Catholicism and memetics (Dawkins) say that complete ideas just appear in human minds. The creation of these ideas/memeplex it's not a product of human consciousness. Catholicism says evil ideas (concupiscence) are produced by Satan and good ideas (grace) come from directly God's nature.
• 

  cofty

  Catholicism says evil ideas (concupiscence) are produced by Satan and good ideas (grace) come from directly God's nature

  Please start your own thread if you want to promote Roman Catholic superstitions. You have already trashed at least two of my other threads with this nonsense.
  
  
• 

  John_Mann

  And consciousness decides if these random ideas will be nurtured. The bicameral men don't had this ability to choose among appearing thoughts inside their minds.
• 

  cofty

  Seriously ....
• 

  John_Mann

  How do you square that with the really strong evidence of self awareness in other animals?

  What strong evidence?

  Are you talking about the mirror test and/or the spot test? They're are very controversial.
  

  There's sensory reaction by instinct in the same way robots can be programmed to be self-protective.
  
  
• 

  John_Mann

  Please start your own thread if you want to promote Roman Catholic superstitions. You have already trashed at least two of my other threads with this nonsense.

  Thought police?