Proportional Representation vs Electoral Collages

by Simon 109 Replies latest jw friends

  • LoveUniHateExams
    LoveUniHateExams

    majority of the UK people voted for parties supporting either Remain or second referendum - but that's only because the majority of our MPs voted Remain and want us to stay.

    So, more political parties ran on manifestos that wanted to stop/overturn the 2016 referendum result.

    It was only two parties that stuck up for the will of the UK electorate - the Conservatives and the Brexit party.

    All the pro-Remain MPs got slaughtered - it was a total bloodbath and a sharp reminder to our MPs not to ignore the will of the people.

    Dominic Grieve - gone.

    Jo Swinson - gone.

    Chuka Umunna - gone.

    Anna Soubry - gone.

    etc., etc.

    We've now had two votes for Brexit - one referendum and one general election. The message sent to our 'honourable' Members of Parliament is crystal-clear: get brexit done. I hope they listen to the people they claim to serve.

  • LoveUniHateExams
    LoveUniHateExams

    The SNP pretending that they are already independent of the UK that Scotland voted to remain in back in 2014 is where the lack of respect for democracy lies.

    ^^^ This.

  • LoveUniHateExams
    LoveUniHateExams

    @Slim: the Scottish people don't get to decide when to have IndyRef 2.

    Boris Johnson gets to decide that - he's Prime Minister of the UK and has a large majority.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    The SNP stood on a platform of a new referendum in 2016 and won. There is a majority in the Scottish Parliament for a referendum. This election is not the first time the SNP have won a mandate for a new referendum, it’s the fourth time they have won an election on that basis. Each time the Tories and Labour argued against another referendum and each time they have lost. What does it take? Should we stop having elections in Scotland if it doesn’t matter what we vote for.

    Scotland does respect democracy. It voted to stay in the UK in 2014 and it did stay in the UK. That is democracy.

    Scotland did not vote to give up any right over its future no matter what happens. If that’s what Westminster thinks is the situation now, then support for independence is going to go through the roof. In some ways I welcome the arrogance of unionists who take your position because it is pushing undecided Scots over to independence.

    Once upon a time fair minded unionists used to take the position that Scotland can become independent if it wants to. If unionists are now saying Scotland has no right to independence even if people vote for it, this is a whole new ball game. As this message sinks in, if you think support for the SNP and indepdence is high already, we’ve seen nothing yet.

  • notsurewheretogo
    notsurewheretogo
    If elections mean anything then Scotland has a right over its own future, which it has voted for 4 times in three years.

    Slim...we have already done this.

    There are 4 million voters in Scotland. 35% voted SNP. Of the people who did vote 45% voted SNP (1.4 million) yet 54% voted pro-union parties (1.5 million). And of the 45% that did vote SNP 25% of them voted for SNP tactically against Brexit and nothing to do with independence.

    In 2015 49% voted SNP, just after the failed independence in 2014.

    The SNP say Scotland have voted and now must be heard? SNP do not represent Scotland when more people voted for pro-union parties.

    35% of voters voting SNP is not a majority. 45% of votes being for SNP is not a majority. The majority voted for pro-union parties.

    Of the 48 seats won by SNP only 10 were won by 50% of the votes.

    Scotland has no right to another indy referendum because a) nothing has changed since 2014 and b) the majority voted for pro-union parties last week.

    Add in other factors like the SNP's horrendous track record with the powers devolved to it since 2007 and the £10 billion black hole in our finances if we went independent that we need to find its not too hard to see Westminster saying no.

    If Scotland were independent our deficit would be 7% and as the SNP's own Growth Commission report outlined in 2018 it would take decades of tax rises and austerity measures to get it down to 3% just to apply to get into the EU.

    Nothing about independence makes any sense financially. The UK know this as their deficit is 1% and they support Scotland.

    £65 billion is raised in taxes in Scotland but we spend £73 billion. Where would the money come from?

    Then there is the divorce bills...setting up a currency...Foreign Office, bank regulating body, armies, defence etc. Everyone knows a divorce costs you but when you are ten billion down already???

    I say Boris gives the mandate to have it in 2020 because the SNP would crap themselves given the stats indicate if anything independence is less likely than in 2014.

    Then the SNP can get on with their day jobs and sort out the utter mess that our NHS and education system is in.

    I'm a passionate Scot about my country and there is huge issues with independence and huge benefits being in the union.

    I still scratch my head at the reason why we need indyref2 is because we are being pulled out of the EU when we trade 23% with the EU but trade 60% with the UK.

    How can coming of of the EU be bad affecting 23% of our trade but pulling out of the UK affecting 60% of our trade be good?

    We voted in 2014...that should be respected.

    #makesnosense

  • notsurewheretogo
    notsurewheretogo
    then support for independence is going to go through the roof.

    Eh? MORE people voted for pro-union parties on Thursday! Independence favour has gone down!

    Just look at some of the recent polls on the matter.

  • notsurewheretogo
    notsurewheretogo

    The latest YouGov survey has Independence at 44% if you are interested.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    If landslide victories is not enough, gIs there any mandate for a new referendum you would respect?

    SNP won more support in Scotland than the Tories won in England. Does Johnson have a mandate?

  • notsurewheretogo
    notsurewheretogo

    You miss the point.

    More people voted for pro-union parties than an Independent party.

    Surely the majority of voters should be taken into consideration as to Scotland's views as to their future?

    SNP do NOT speak for the majority of Scotland's people as proved on Thursday.

    Just because the pro-union votes were split among parties and the Independence votes were not resulting in seats is irrelevant.

    More people in Scotland voted with parties who favor the union.

    So there is no mandate...there is no majority...there is no huge swing to independence.

    Nothing has changed since 2014.

  • cofty
    cofty

    ^^ This ^^

    Also there were plenty people who voted SNP who do not want to break up the Union.

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