Trinity doctrine and bible canonization

by The JHWH 9 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • The JHWH
    The JHWH

    Hello, a quick question that came to find and couldn't find easy answer using google so I'ma try here.

    So: Was the doctrine of trinity decided to be a christian doctrine by the same people who chose which books to include in the bible? I vaguely remember that both of these subjects were decided at the first council of Nicaea. If this is not the case, then when, where and by whom were these things decided?

  • Crazyguy
    The books of the Bible we're added and taken away over the centuries. At the council of Nicea in 325 it was decided that Christ was in fact son of God but God as well. This wasn't anything new since in past religions sons of gods became gods themselves either do to some great act of bravery, like Marduk defeating the dragon or sometimes the son got his power handed to him like Isis stealing away the power of Ra and giving it to her son Horus. In other cases the son God kills or castrates his father, Greek mythology.
  • fulltimestudent
    The JHWH: So: Was the doctrine of trinity decided to be a christian doctrine by the same people who chose which books to include in the bible? I vaguely remember that both of these subjects were decided at the first council of Nicaea. If this is not the case, then when, where and by whom were these things decided?

    Ummm! The trinity doctrine developed to deal with certain contradictions caused by Christian beliefs. There is no clear story of the development of Christianity, all we can do is read early writings and attempt to figure out what was happening.

    For instance, Ignatius, the Overseer (Bishop) of the Antioch group of Christians was arrested around 110 CE, and sent to Rome to be tried. On the way he was greeted by representatives of various local churches, to whom he later wrote. Seven of those letters survive. The topics mostly deal with faithfulness and obedience . But from the viewpoint of JW dogma there are two interesting points in his letter to the Romans.It is clear from his that letter that he expected to be with Jesus soon after his death- there seems no expectation of a long sleep in death.

    But the second point touches on your question. In ch.3 vs 3, he writes,

    "Our God Jesus Christ, indeed, has revealed himself ..."

    So, within a generation (at the most) of the death of the Apostles, a Church leader could call Jesus, "God."

    However, that was just the start of a long journey to reconcile that idea with other Jewish teachings. However some scholars (like Daniel Boyarin) feel that the vision of Daniel 7 had already prepared the way for a concept of a senior God and a Junior God.

    Boyarin feels that this idea came from the long intellectual movement within Judaism from polytheism to monotheism. ( See his The Jewish Gospels: The Story of the Jewish Christ.)

    I myself have the opinion, that the Hellenisation of West Asia introduced (if nothing else already had not) the concept of apotheosis, the elevation of a human to Godship (divine status). In Greek mythology, Hercules (Heracles) who had a human mother, but a God (Zeus) for a father, was apotheosised after his death and was escorted to heaven by the Goddess Athena. How natural for the gospel writers to describe their beliefs about Jesus, using commonly discussed Hellenic ideas.

  • smiddy

    The bottom line is no GOD , whether it be called Jehovah,Yahweh, Allah, or whatever anybody wants to call him or her, chose any books , that appear in the many different versions of the Bible .

    The Bible along with all other Sacred writings are nothing more than the imaginations of humans , both male and female.


  • slimboyfat

    The idea that the NT canon was decided at the council of Nicaea is a myth. It is a myth that was made popular by the extremely successful fictional novel The Da Vinci Code by Dan Brown. New Testament scholar Bart Ehrman has written a book debunking various myths in The Da Vinci Code, including the idea that the NT canon was decided by the emperor Constantine at the council of Nicaea.

    When was the NT canon decided? Scholars offer different views on this question. A common view is that the canon developed slowly over the centuries and Athanasius was the first to list the NT canon as we know it today in his Easter letter of 367 AD. Bruce Metzger's book is a standard text that argues for this position.

    Other scholars have offered different theories, including David Trobisch who has argued that the canon was decided much earlier. On the basis of internal and manuscript data Trobisch argues that the NT canon was fixed as early as the second century by the church father Polycarp.

  • Crazyguy
    I was under the impression Marcion had written and gathered about 20-22 writings ,then over time more we're added and others taken out.
  • slimboyfat

    Marcion is commonly believe to have played an important role in the development of the canon. It is argued that Marcion was the first to offer a canonical list. His list differed from what was later accepted (it comprised the gospel of Luke and the letters of Paul) and many argue that the later official canon was developed in response to Marcion. Jason BeDuhn has written an interesting book on Marcion's NT.

  • WireRider

    My 2 cents. There are a lot of opinions, but few provable facts.

    Emperor Constantine had a real political problem in the province. It was a turning point in history. The Roman's had many "gods". The uprising of the "Christians" and the many factions there of. He needed a consensus to calm the crowds and fighting.

    He called together some 20+ Catholic Bishops to put an end to political unrest. The Counsel of Nicaea.

    Arius showed up. Arius had largely been dismissed as he preached against the divinity of Jesus and against the Trinity. Not only did they kick him out, they banished him to the north and ordered all of his works to be burned. The entire NT was very specifically collected around the concept of the Trinity - if nothing else to prove Arius very wrong. His works were considered completely dead by 380AD.

    Until Charles Russell picked them up somewhere around 1875 and thought they were cool.

    The Adventist, and JW/Watchtower descendants are still known as the Arianism. The rejectors of Jesus.

    There was such persecution of there ideas that they had to plagiarizer their own version of the Bible to quell questions about their own publishing to their own congregation.

    "There are a lot of opinions, but few provable facts." - but everyone knows that the JW/WT has deliberately changed worlds in the Bible to the NWT to conceal the facts.

    Cha ching another million books sold by a "publishing company"..... every couple of years.


  • WireRider

    If you want to think about the Watchtower - read Arius and think stuck in time. Arius was branded and utterly banished as an apostate.

    They are still pissed about a figure 1900 years ago.

    The JW/WT who follow Arius are the apostates (Adventists, pyramidism, pagan - all the worship of Russell). Ironic. They hate the they Catholics out of revenge - but they use their Bible - The NT very intentionally centered around they Trinity.

    All JW/WT should worry more about bursting into flames for reading the Bible that walking into a CHURCH.

  • Nicholaus Kopernicus
    Nicholaus Kopernicus

    An interesting discussion on the history of the trinity doctrine is still freely available to download from the BBC...

    Discussion is chaired by Melvyn Bragg and has three guest speakers. I found it quite interesting.

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