That was a weird double post happening above. Not sure how it doubled before I was done writing it.
Alive, and the rest who responded, thank you for helping me to understand .
The pervasive mindset of deception ( which is actually lying whether conscious or subconscious IMO) as a "tool" and the ability to rationalize it, spin it, even in serious matters, is crazymaking for those who were not raised JW, or been in the org for a long time.
I desperately want my husband to recognize this, but he may never be able to do so. He will lie about understanding the concept, because later he is back at square one as if an "enlightened" discussion of this had not taken place!
I don't know if the longer we are married it is getting worse, or the longer we are married the more I just recognize it. I used to have trust in him. Now, not so much. How does anyone have a healthy marriage when trust is removed?
In his family, I wish I knew the full dynamics. From the outside they do seem very accepting , get along with everyone, nice, generous, etc. But I didn't know him until he was in his early 40's.
He does have loads of self esteem issues, guilt due to being a teenager who dabbled in drugs ( with no normal recognition of boundaries, such as how he brought the bong to high school, and also smoked pot in class, WTF!) It's a miracle he was not jailed. His elder father was asked to leave the elder position because of my husband's behavior and him not controlling his son, likely told to leave the congregation. because he never went back since the late 70's. My husband also left, never got baptized and was physically out. even memorials, for decades. But the topic just did not get discussed. Off limits.
I do feel he had pressure on him to always do more, but his personality as a teen was not to do more in the organization. His strong work ethic had him getting a restaurant job before he could even drive, and working hard to earn money for a car. Yet he didn't care about his education ( His father did, so at least his father didn't let the org brainwash all of that out of him when he converted s an adult) But for my husband , even his father's continual attempts to teach him beyond the classroom in math, didn't impress my husband to care about it.
My husbands self esteem issue are complex. His father , now, is always showing pride in his son,. I don't know what it as like when he was a child. His mother just doesn't have a bad word to say , now, but what was it like for he and his brother growing up?
In his early 20's he jumped from living at home ( He stopped the drugs the day he graduated high school and didn't ever tell his parents, which was mean in my opinion. They found out years later) and big into tae kwon do and even taking horticulture classes at a local CC ( though made failing grades and didn't finish), and also moving in with a 10 years his senior beautiful divorcee, living next door. She had a psychology degree, working at a big company in HR, and she was highly mentally abusive to him. Extreme control over his every move, and there, he was never good enough. But he stayed with her for almost 15 years. He also got better at lying during that time I am sure. He lived in fear of her temper, but wouldn't leave. She demanded he not show affection to his little niece, and he would obey this. She demanded he not have contact with his family NEXT DOOR and he obeyed, until the last years together. She traveled for work so he would "sneak" during those times. see his family, see ( these were non jw) friends she didn't allow. Only her friends were allowed to visit.
Such a complex story of emotional abuse, self esteem issues, and I don't even know how much of the effect is from the KH teachings. He was in his early teens in 1975, so that had to be big too.
I go back and forth between what is real, what is not, what is best for me and my daughter, feeling like I have literally married a man with unsolvable, hard to manage emotional issues, that I would be abandoning, giving up on him, if I didn't keep trying to keep the marriage together.
Since he has stopped all KH visits and even reading the tracts his Mom occasionally gives him. Since he is actively going to therapy both alone and together for the marriage. Since he is willing to take antidepressants, and does try, I keep trying.
This pervasive lying is so extremely difficult to deal with when trying to make a marriage work. Some days i feel defeated and begin planning my life without him. He also has no ability( or is it no desire?) to see beyond the now, no ability to plan for the future. He still has not provided me with any indication that he is willing to plan. except his words, which are so many time lies to get the conversation to end...... avoidance.
He has no financial abilities whatsoever. He had me convinced he did extensive planning and research on future financial planning when we got married.
I found out the hard way, that he read a book, did make a plan with mostly taking direction from his father ( who does have financial common sense) , and got in on the real estate boom buying rental homes and flipping for a few years. After we married I eventually saw what was happening, begging him to stop buying those overpriced houses in very depressed areas. I saw the writing on the financial wall even then. He would get so angry that I questioned his knowledge and decisions. In the beginning I let this go. Of course the collapse happened.
One broker he worked with was being chased by the FBI, so my husband was involved in that ( because he didn't really research like he said he did, he just goes along, signs without reading, does what other people say). Luckily the FBI saw he was a sucker to this guy they were chasing, so let him go with a warning to stop signing contracts! My husband admitted to me he thought something was fishy going on with this guy but he never researched anything, didn't look into it, nada. Did what he was told. Rationalized everything.
Because he doesn't revisit the decisions, never adjusts for anything, arrogantly refuses to accept he needs to change financial course from time to time, it has been a hole sucking our earnings ever since. He also saw no problem at all in taking some of the earnings from his landscaping business and keeping it in a cash drawer, or depositing them into a personal account and not accounting for them taxes! When I took over the books, nightmare is not a strong enough word for it. Impossible to get it corrected, and I took it to an expert accountant to try to help. Yet, to this day, he still occasionally will cash a check and keep the cash without reporting it. The self justified lying, after previously agreeing strongly he should never do that again.... and I have ZERO tolerance for this. The IRS also has zero tolerance for this, and we are almost certainly in huge trouble if ever audited.
I have gradually taken over all the finances. I am working alone on planning how to get out of this massive debt his decisions put us in. By myself I have had to keep track of all the debt and income. I managed to get his credit card away from him. Tried to get him a personal one, but found out quickly he has no ability/desire/responsibility o keep track of what he spends, and doesn't pay the bill. That card is gone to. He gets angry frequently claiming I am controlling him, I am co dependent... he has lots of labels. I never "give" him a limit on how much cash he can take out of a deposited check. I only ask he deposit the entire check, then withdraw what he calculates he will need. But to be aware that we have other bills/expenses these checks go to, so it really can't be the whole check. In therapy, the therapist agreed with a cash method for him, my husband reluctantly agreed to do this, but every week or so gets very angry about it. He gets my CC and holds on to it insisting he needs it to buy things for the household, gas etc. Ok, that would be fine if he came home with only what is needed, and not use it without knowing the balance beforehand. His refusal to look up, or even ask me the balance, is what makes me know he is too irresponsible to use a credit card. He will tell me he looked it up and paid on it but I look up behind him immediately and see that was not true. He was evidently planning to go do it before he got "caught" then forgets to do it!. Its a yoyo...rollercoaster. His ability to look me in the face, and repeatedly lie takes a huge toll.
I ask him to write down what he spends the cash on in a bank book. Not to control, but to give him awareness. I also try to keep track of our spending. I only question him when he buys things in bulk when we are living paycheck to paycheck, taking out money from our house equity line to pay the bills sometimes. I know he feels like I am acting like a mother, but when he is behaving like an irresponsible teenager with finances, what else is there to do? I try to be careful about the subject, but there must be responsibility and accountability.
He does work, finally, at a steady job with our nephew. ( This began about 2 years ago!) Before that, the active income was a steady decline, and the passive rental income was always a negative number at the end of the year. I also took on a job, part time, under my pay grade, so I can work on this other business as well, which requires a good bit of time, plus raise our daughter, trying to be there for her.
Oh my I believe I have been ranting. I suppose I needed to. I apologize for the novel. I do this from time to time. I greatly appreciate all those who actually read and care. It means so much to me. This outlet is a priceless gift for me.
Now it is off to work on a Saturday at the outside job, while the husband will stay in bed until his usual 2pm wake up time on Saturdays and Sundays. <sigh>