What are the biggest holes in the ransom sacrifice?

by Half banana 32 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • redvip2000

    So Jesus died for nothing. Adam wasn't the first man, he actually didn't exist.

    Yes, funny how the bible itself is a house of cards. Without Adam, the entire thing falls apart. Without Adam, there is no need for a redeemer. And even if Jesus existed, the fact that he believed in Adam as being the first man, which he said he did, means that he was just a middle eastern carpenter, who felt his life had a greater purpose than hammering away at a piece of wood, in essense, the same narcissistic view that JW annointed ones have, when they say they feel the calling inside of them.

  • Finkelstein

    Many practicing Christians including JWS aren't aware of the many self professed Messiahs that appeared well before Jesus's supposed appearance in the historical time frame of ancient Israel/Judaism.

    They too were ones who were resurrected to save humanity and sacrificed themselves for humanity, particularly for god's sacred chosen ones.

    Orthodox Jews all throughout history even to this day say that Jesus was not the spoken Messiah but simply a prophet or teacher of the returning Messiah the one who is to bring salvation . ???

  • David_Jay


    From what I got from my Jewish family members and their rabbis, Judaism does not allow for a dying Messiah that gets resurrected.

    Judaism does not see the Genesis account as teaching "original sin," and therefore there is no doctrine of "salvation" in any branch of Judaism.

    No "original sin" then no need to "save" you or me from it by a "dying Messiah."

    To the best of my memory from discussions with them, there can be no "ransom sacrifice" via Jesus because to Jews...

    1. Sin is not a innate feature of humanity. Sin is an action.

    2. The prophet Ezekiel taught that God never charges children with the sin of their parents.

    3. Human sacrifice is forbidden by the Mosiac Law (Jews actually teach that the Abrahamic sacrifice was God's way of telling Abraham that God does NOT accept human sacrifice).

    4. Adam was neither an angel nor a god, therefore neither St. Michael the Archangel or God incarnate is an equivalent ransom; the "scales of justice" would be unbalanced in the opposite direction.

    5. People are responsible for their own sins and can repent of them for forgiveness.

    6. The Mosaic Law only allowed animal sacrifice to cover "unintentional" sin. All other forms of sin required retribution of different sorts (i.e. "an eye for an eye," equal payment plus an additional fee, stoning, etc.). Adam's sin was not unintentional therefore blood cannot cover it.

    7. The Messiah who restores Israel, not gets rejected and killed by Israel. Thus anyone who gets rejected by the Jews automatically cannot be the Messiah since to be the Messiah the Jews have to accept the person as their ruler.

    8. Blood that covers sin must be poured out on the altar before the Tabernacle or Temple in order for forgiveness. Jesus died outside Jerusalem's walls.

    9. Israel sees itself in a religion that grows via enlightenment, both spiritual and humanistic, and the idea of animal sacrifice belongs to a period of primitive humans. Judaism (like life in general) evolves. It doesn't follow the Bible. The Bible follows Judaism.

    10. "Redemption" in Hebrew theology refers to saving humanity from its ills, injustice, suffering, but not saving it from "original sin" which Jews believe no human has.

    Besides some Jews don't believe the Messiah is a person anymore. Reform Judaism, for example, holds that the "Messiah" is an ideal regarding human evolution in which humanity, religious and secular, evolves into the "person" pictured by the figurative Messiah idea. Humanity, many Jews believe, has the capacity to heal itself and society of its ills, thus becoming what was pictured by the Messiah. The idea behind this comes from the fact that there are no specific verses that talk about the "Messiah," per se. The Messiah concept is a tradition of Judaism, not a figure specifically spelled out in Scripture.

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