The WEIRD obsession with demoting Jesus has been a hallmark of Watch Tower religion since about 1909 and in 1953 (I believe it was) the Charter was changed to snatch worship away from Him.
Cross and Crown - where art thou?
At the start of the magazine, the cover focused on Jesus until suddenly it was Jehovah instead. Along the way, more and more Bible Students split off (for various reasons)
and those splits were signal fires that were dealt with by attorney Rutherford by deflecting the focus on Christendom conspiracy theories.
Finally, it must be said that Jesus is not the Mediator for the Great Crowd has been taught but hardly any JW even knows about it for reasons (I suspect) of mental short-circuit along the lines of cognitive dissonance.
Saving "mark" on forehead: A CROSS?
by Terry 22 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
-
Terry
-
Disillusioned JW
In contrast to receiving a mark for survival Revelation 9:4 says those who "... have the seal of God on their foreheads" receive no harm from the locusts which have the authority of scorpions. Revelation 22:3-4 says there will be those who will see the face of God (or is it that of the Lamb, or is it of both) and that such ones will have the name of God (or is it that of the Lamb, or is it of both) on their foreheads in the holy city (New Jerusalem) after the 1,000 years of rule (during the abyss of Satan) have ended. Revelation 21:27 (1984 NWT) indicates that those with the holy name on their foreheads are those who names are "written in the Lamb's scroll of life" and Revelation 22:5 (1984 NWT) says "they will rule as kings forever and ever." In contrast Revelation 13:15-18, 16:2, and and 19:20 says that the ones who worship the beast and the image of the beast will have the mark of the beast on their forehead or on their right hand.
-
Terry
KING's X :)
King’s X” as an expression “used as a cry in children’s games to claim exemption from being tagged or caught " :) -
Disillusioned JW
Terry I now think you are on to something in regards to the cross shaped "mark" referred to in Ezekiel, but not exactly the way that you think. That is because a moment ago I heard mention of the mark of the book of Ezekiel in the DVD of the documentary film called "The Lost Tomb of Jesus", a "A Simcha Jacobovici Film". Such a mark was found as part of the inscription on one of the ossuaries discovered by Simcha (and Simcha thinks some of them belongs to the Jesus family and ones in nearby tomb to very early followers of Jesus). The show mentions the mark (the Tav) it is the last letter of the Aramaic alphabet and that though it is cross shaped it does not signify a crucifixion type cross. Instead since it is of the last letter of the Aramaic alphabet it has an apocalyptic symbolic meaning of "final" and "end", "sealed up", finished, and OK. Notice the show (with James Tabr making the comments about the mark) said "sealed up". In my prior post in this topic thread I mentioned Revelation saying the "seal of God" and it being used of those who Revelation says would be protected by God. The show ties it in with the book of Revelation calling Jesus the "The First and the Last" ("Alpha and Omega" in Greek, which is "The Aleph and the Tav" in Aramaic)! That is mentioned at about the one hour mark of the show. The show is amazing! I checked out the DVD from the library three days ago but I didn't begin watching it til tonight.
The figurative "pieces of a puzzle" are "coming together" for me.
More and more I am seeing that so many things (and even statement made by various people) are connected together, in ways that most people don't usually notice. For example, I had no idea that this show would mention the mark in the sense of being sealed instead of being a crucifixion cross, yet two days ago you mentioned the mark as a crucifixion cross and I contrasted it with "the seal of God"! I think that is more than mere coincidence, I think it is many of many evidences of interconnections of the universe! I'm starting to think that minds are interconnected in a metaphysical quantum physics kind of way and that parts of the universe are also interconnected (in ways we don't see), perhaps by means of the"fabric of space-time".
Maybe in some sense I am starting to become a mystic (maybe even 'spiritual' in sense, but in a non-supernaturalistic way)!
-
Disillusioned JW
Terry, a number of times I wondered why Paul put so much emphasis on the idea that Christ died specifically on a cross, rather than on something else. But, after watching the first hour of the "Tomb of Jesus" show I now have an idea. Maybe to the Apostle Paul the cross of Christ was the apocalyptic meaning of Tav having the meanings of:"last", "finished", "end", and "sealed up", and "brought to life" ("raised up" and "resurrected"). According to a least one of the gospels Jesus right before death on the cross said "It is Finished"! If these ideas were what Paul was thinking the cross meant, I get it now! Wow!
If such is the case then more puzzle pieces are coming together. It is of a puzzle which is a great mystery (perhaps even what can be called a sacred secret) which is now becoming revealed (as by a revelation).
Interestingly, for two years prior to ceasing to believe in Jehovah God and the Christ, I privately partook of Memorial emblems (Matzo unleavened bread and juice I freshly squeezed from unfermented red grapes ["the fruit of the vine" the gospels call it, instead of calling it wine]) in my home (with me conducting the Memorial ceremony with myself). Maybe there was more significance to those actions of mine than I realized.
All is interconnected. All is part of the One, the one universe (though some people think of the One as being God, such as in Hinduism). Thinking of that I am reminded a gospel which credits Jesus as saying his disciples are to be one (or in union), just as Jesus and the Father are one (or in union). Wow. All is one. All is interconnected.
Speaking about oneness, about a week ago I watched an episode of the TV series called "Sliders" in which one of the characters experienced her consciousness leaving her body and joining (or accessing) what she called the "universal consciousness". In a different episode a different character's consciousness was linked up with those of other human consciousnesses and they thought they were getting close to linking their minds with God.
-
Terry
I watched a series of lectures on YouTube concerning scholars addressing the DEAD SEA SCROLLS and how the war between the Sons of Darkness and the Sons of Light actually dealt with the conflict between the 2 Priesthoods for dominance as to the CALENDAR used to reckon religious rituals; the 1st and 2nd referring to MOON and SUN.
The ancient conflict between agrarian society (sun dominated for growth)
and Moon dominated societies that traveled from place to place across the desert by Night (Arabs, wandering Jews, tribes).
The Qumran community was disgusted with the Jerusalem temple having been desecrated first by Greeks and then Romans - they sought to await the Last DAys preserving the Bible and keeping clean and sacrificing animals privately. -
Disillusioned JW
"The Lost Tomb of Jesus, A Simcha Jacobovici Film" can be watched for free at this location . Besides what I wrote previously it makes other amazing statements. For example in it an expert/authority says something which agrees with a statement of the WT that most people don't likely believe. Consider the following.
At about the 1:01:00 mark Father Jerome Murphy-O'Conner says regarding crucifixion type of crosses that early Christians (ones in the first century) were not using them . He said that for any of them to wear one around their neck "would be like someone today wearing a little electric chair. It was disgusting. It was a symbol of torture and it was only when crucifixion was stopped that the human imagination was able to move from the reality to the symbol." That first part of what he said agrees with the WT says about wearing crosses.
A scientific test was done of the patina of the ossuary which is inscribed "James son of Joseph brother of Jesus". That ossuary was sold by an antiquities dealer and thus archaeologists don't know where it came from. Experts say the " brother of Jesus" part of the inscription is possibly a forgery but not the "James son of Joseph" portion. The scientific analysis was done on the patina of the "James son of Joseph ..." ossuary and compared with a scientific analysis of the patina of the "Jesus son of Joseph" ossuary and the Mary Magdalene ossuary, those two being from the same tomb. The patina of the "James son of Joseph ..." matches the others, but random samples of patina from other ossuaries (not ones from the same tomb as the Joseph and Mary ossuaries) does not match the ones from the same tomb as the Joseph and Mary ossuaries. That means the James ossuary came from the same tomb as the ossuaries of Joseph, Jesus, Jose, and Mariamne (Mary Magdalene), and Matthew (the one from the family line of the Mary who was the mother of Jesus) came from. That is strong evidence that those 4 ossuaries are of the family of the biblical Jesus (later called the Christ) and that their tomb is tomb of the family of Jesus! Wow!
In the family tomb was also found an ossuary of the child that ossuary bore the inscription of "son of Jesus". the video mentions that in the Gospel of John refers to a beloved disciple (without mentioning his name) and that John 19:26 says Jesus asks the beloved disciple at the base of the cross to behold his mother. The verse than quotes Jesus as saying "woman behold your son". The show is saying that instead of that Mary in the verse being the mother of Jesus, it could be Mariamne (Mary Magdalene) and that Mariamne (Mary Magdalene) could be the wife Jesus ,and that the son could be son of both Mary Magdalene and Jesus! WOW!!!
As a result the scientific evidence of this video I now have much weaker belief in the Christ myth theory. I now strongly believe that the Jesus the Nazarene of the gospels was a real historical person (but I don't believe in everything that is ascribed to him) and that his family tomb and his remains have been found!
Just as Herod the Great, Pontius Pilate, and High Priest Caiaphas have been shown by archaeological discoveries to be have historical persons, I now strongly believe that John the Baptist/Baptizer, Mary Magdalene (Mariamne), Jesus the Nazarene (the son of Joseph), and James (the son of Joseph) the brother of Jesus were also historical persons! I now strongly believe they were all real! Wow! I am stunned!
-
Disillusioned JW
Update: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lost_Tomb_of_Jesus makes claims which refute many of the claims of the documentary.
-
Disillusioned JW
Last night I read a portion of an Awake! article from April 2006 (on pages 12 - 13) called "The Bible's Viewpoint. Did Jesus Really Die on a Cross?"
What caught my intention is that it quoted a scholar's book called The Non-Christian Cross, by J. D. Parson. I thus investigated that book and its author and I discovered that the book was published in the year 1929! [The book's full title is THE NON-CHRISTIAN CROSS: AN ENQUIRY INTO THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE SYMBOL EVENTUALLY ADOPTED AS THAT OF OUR RELIGION.] That is the only scholarly source referred to in the Awake! article yet the source was about 77 years old when the Awake! was published. Furthermore I learned from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Denham_Parsons that the author, John Denham Parsons, was a member of the Society for Psychical Research, yet the WT (which condemns the occult and spiritism) quoted him as an authority about the implement of Christ's death! Not only that, but Parsons wrote a book called OUR SUN-GOD OR CHRISTIANITY BEFORE CHRIST: A DEMONSTRATION THAT, AS THE FATHERS ADMITTED, OUR RELIGION EXISTED BEFORE OUR ERA, AND EVEN IN PRE-HISTORIC TIMES.I decided to read those books to see what they say. I discovered that thay actually make a good case for a number of their claims! They can both be read for free online at https://archive.org .
The Cross book Parsons says the following.
'Another fact worthy of special note is that, whether the Fathers wrote in Greek and used the word stauros^ or wrote in Latin and trans- lated that word as cnix, they often seem to have had in their mind's eye a tree ; a tree which moreover was closely connected in meaning with the forbidden tree of the Garden of Eden, an allegorical figure of undoubtedly phallic signification which had its counterpart in the Tree of the Hesperides, from which the Sun-God Hercules after killing the Serpent was fabled to have picked the Golden Apples of Love, one of which became the symbol of Venus, the Goddess of Love. Nor was this the only such counterpart, for almost every race seems in days of old to have had an allegorical Tree of Knowledge or Life whose fruit was Love ; the ancients perceiving that it was love which produced life, and that but for the sexual passion and its indulgence mankind would cease to be.
Starting upon an examination of the early Christian writings in question, we read in the Gospel of Nicodemits that when the Chief Priests interviewed certain men whom Jesus had raised from the dead, those men made upon their faces " the sign of the stauros." ^ The sign of the cross is presumably meant ; and
^ Nicodemus i.
all that need be said is that if the men whom Jesus raised from the dead were acquainted with the sign of the cross, it would appear that it must have been as a pre-Christian sign.
Further on in the same Gospel, Satan is represented as being told that " All that thou hast gained through the Tree of Knowledge, all hast thou lost through the Tree of the Stauros." ^ Elsewhere we read that " The King of Glory stretched out his right hand, and took hold of our forefather Adam., and raised him : then, turning also to the rest, he said, Come with me as many as have died through the Tree which he touched, for behold I again raise you all up through the Tree of the Stauros." ^ Some see in this peculiar pronouncement a reference to the doctrine of re-incarnation.
...
^ Nicodenms vii. - Nicodemtis viii. '
In the Sun-God book (published in 1895) a number of things which Parsons says are things which a small number of atheists today say about Christianity having started before the time of Moses, and that some sayings in the Gospels relate to the signs of the Zodiac. Like a number of atheists who proclaim the Christ Myth theory, he says the Gospel of Mark is an allegory and he explains some things about early Christianity from a Gnostic point of view. He also says that some passages in the OT Bible are myths instead of being factual. He also believes in human evolution and says that our Genus, Homo, existed many thousands of years longer than 6,000 years. I might post quotes from that book in a different topic thread.
-
Disillusioned JW
Elsewhere in the Cross book by Parson the following is said. [The text below and that quoted in my prior post are from https://archive.org/stream/nonchristiancros00pars/nonchristiancros00pars_djvu.txt . That source has some minor typos due to the computerized scanning transcription process (let the reader use discernment, or read the book from the PDF source instead).]
'No ross-shaped symbol of wood or of any other material had any part in the Christianity of the second and third centuries ; and the only cross which had any part in the Christianity of those days was the immaterial one traced upon the forehead in the non-Mosaic and originally Pagan initiatory rite of Baptism, and at other times also according to some of the Fathers, apparently as a charm against the machinations of evil spirits.
This " sign " or " signal " rather than " symbol " of the cross, referred to as theirs by the Christian writers of the second and third cen- turies, is said to have had a place before our era in the rites of those who worshipped Mithras, if not also of those who worshipped certain other conceptions of the Sun-God ; and it should be noted that the Fathers insist upon it that a similar mark is what the prophet Ezekiel referred to as that to be placed upon the foreheads of certain men as a sign of life and salvation ; the original Hebrew reading " Set a tail upon the foreheads of the men " {Ezek. ix. 4), and the tau having been in the days of the prophet in question — as we know from relics of the past — the figure of a cross. Nor should it be forgotten that Tertullian admits that those admitted into the rites of the Sun-God Mithras were so marked, trying to V explain this away by stating that this was done in imitation of the then despised Christians ! ^
That it was this immaterial sign or signal, rather than any material symbol of the cross, which Minucius Felix considered Christian, is demonstrated by the fact that the passage already quoted is accompanied by the remark that" Crosses, moreover, we Christians neither venerate nor wish for. You indeed who consecrate gods of wood venerate wooden crosses, perhaps as parts of your gods. For your very standards, as well as your banners, and flags of your camps, what are they but crosses gilded and adorned ? Your victorious trophies not only imitate the appearance of a simple cross, but also that of a man affixed to it.""
^ De Praescrip. xl. - Oct. xxix.
This remarkable denunciation of the Cross as a Pagan symbol by a Christian Father who lived as late as the third century after Christ, is worthy of special attention ; and can scarcely be said to bear out the orthodox account of the origin of the cross as a Christian symbol. It is at any rate clear that the cross was not our recognised symbol at that date ; and that it is more likely to have been gradually adopted by us from Sun-God worshippers, than by the worshippers of Mithras and other pre-Christian conceptions of the Sun-God from us.
...
There thus being no opposing evidence of any weight, it is quite clear from the fact that as late as the third century after Christ we find a Christian Father who venerated the sign or figure of the cross denouncing it as a symbol, that no material representations of that sign or figure were recognised as Christian till an even later date. And such a conclusion is borne out by the striking fact that when Clement of Alexan- dria at the beginning of the third century made out a list of the symbols which Christians were permitted to use, he mentioned the Fish and the Dove but said nothing regarding the Cross. ^
...
Peed. iii. II, 59-
...
The other passage in the writings of Irenseus which deserves our notice, is neither more nor less than an emphatic declaration, by Irenaeus himself, that Jesus was not executed when a little over thirty years of age, but lived to be an old man. Explain it away how we will, the fact remains ; and it certainly ought not to be ignored.
At first sight this statement of Irenaeus would decidedly seem to support the theory advanced by some, that, as the Roman Procurator Pontius Pilate admittedly did not want to carry out the extreme penalty in the case of Jesus, though he reluctantly consented to do so in order to pacify the Jews and allowed Jesus to be fixed to a stauros and suspended in public view, he took care to manage things so that Jesus should only appear to die. The idea of course is that if Pilate wished to preserve the life of Jesus he could easily have had him taken down while in a drueeed condition, have had the farce of burial carried out at the earliest possible moment, and then have had him resuscitated and removed to some region where he could dwell in safety. What Irenaeus says concerning Jesus is that
"He passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants. ... So likewise he was an old man for old men, that he might be a perfect Master for all, not merely as regards the setting forth of the truth but also as regards age, sanctifying at the same time the aged also and becoming an example to them likewise. Then, at last, he came on to death itself .... From the fortieth and fiftieth year a man begins to decline towards old age, which our Lord possessed while he still fulfilled the office of a Teacher ; even as the Gospel and all the elders testify, those who were conversant in Asia with John the disciple of the Lord affirming that John con- veyed to them that information. And he remained among them up to the times of Trajan. Some of them moreover saw not only John but the other apostles also, and heard the very same account from them, and bear testimony as to the statement. Whom, then, should we rather believe ? Whether such men as these, or Ptole- maeus, who never saw the apostles and who never even in his dreams attained to the slightest trace of an apostle ? " '
The reader must decide for himself or her- self whether Irenaeus believed that Jesus was never executed ; or that he was executed but
^ Against Heresies, IL, xxii. 4-5.
survived ; or that he was born when we suppose, but executed thirty years or so later than we suppose ; or that, though executed when we suppose, he was then an old man, and was born, not at the commencement or middle or end of the year A.C. i, or B.C. 4, or whenever the orthodox date is, but thirty years or more before what we call our era began. An3^how he men- tions neither cross nor execution, and here seems to assume that Jesus died a natural death. And in any case the fact remains that, however mis- taken he may have been, Irenaeus stated that Jesus lived to be an old man ; and stated so emphatically.
Even granting that Irenaeus must have been mistaken, his evidence none the less affects one of the most important points debated in this work. For it is clear that if even he knew so little about the execution of Jesus, the details of that execution cannot have been particularly well known ; and the affirmation that the stauros to which Jesus was affixed had a transverse bar attached may have had no foundation in fact, and may have arisen from a wish to connect Jesus with that well-known and widely-venerated Symbol of Life, the pre-Christian cross. '
Notice that some of the things mentioned in Parson's book agree with what was said in "The Lost Tomb of Jesus, A Simcha Jacobovici Film"!! Is it mere coincidence that a book I learned of by researching the author of a quote in a WT publication contains some of the same ideas that Jacobovici later proclaimed? I don't think so.