If not the WT/JW relgion where else are 'we' to go? Why not atheistic/scientific philosophical naturalism?

by Disillusioned JW 99 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • ZaneM44
    ZaneM44

    Regarding atheists, in my opinion they can't be trusted. Not specifically because they don't believe in God, but because they believe in evolution.

    Evolution is belief in survival of the fittest. One animal is not condemned for taking what another animal has. A lion is not condemned for killing another lion so he can take over his pride, or for killing the cubs so his can replace them.

    If humans are nothing more than the result of survival of the fittest, than that process is still ongoing to an atheist. We are all just animals, so there is nothing wrong with taking what someone else has, even if you have to kill them to do it. It's just survival of the fittest.

    A true atheists can't have a moral code because morality does not exist in the evolutionary process. In fact, it hinders it.

    :^)

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    ZaneM44 humans are social animals. Humans are dependent upon other humans for survival (even if if is in the form of buying things made by other humans) and to satisfy their emotional needs. As a result they evolved moral traits that work to the advantage of both the individuals and the species. The ones that didn't evolve such traits (such as those who are very anti-social, especially those who are psychopaths) are less fit for survival in human society and thus end up being no more than a minute percentage of the population. The ingrained moral code of humankind comes from their evolutionary biology as social animals, not from from an alleged God/god. A number of books on evolution mention that. I recommend that you read some of them.

    Humans that live in cities or villages (and since the invention of agriculture by humans about 10,000 or 12,000 years ago permanent settlements and eventually cities came into existence) especially need to get along with each other, since they frequently come into close contact with other. [That is why highly urban areas tend to be more liberal (including politically liberal) than rural areas.] That results on certain basic rules of behavior becoming agreed upon by human societies and enforced upon them by human made laws. Those basic rules include no murder, nor stealing, and no raping.

    I'm an atheist and I have a strong moral code. I try to avoid doing to others that which I don't want done to me.

    P.S. - Admittedly, lions are are social animals, but evolutionary scientists give some reasons why it is beneficial for species of lions to do the things you mentioned. One weird thing (to me) is that after a lion kills the cubs of another lion, the females of those dead cubs choose to mate with the lion who killed their cubs, in order to have more cubs. The psychology of lions is thus significantly different than that of humans. What is good (or at least acceptable) for one species in not necessarily so for another species.

  • TonusOH
    TonusOH

    Morality is not some intrinsic quality in living forms. It is a code of behavior that can be arrived at via group enforcement (which many mammal species practice, especially primates) or by reasoning out the benefits and consequences of certain behaviors and enforcing via societal structures (as humans almost always do). The former group does indeed arrive at its moral systems at least in part through evolution, since those species who enforce 'good' and punish 'bad' behaviors are more likely to survive in the long term.

    As for the latter, if you can explain why an action is moral or immoral, then a deity is not a required component of a system of morality.

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    The web page at https://www.learnreligions.com/science-allows-belief-god-does-not-exist-248234 makes an excellent case for the idea that "scientifically, God does not exist—just as science discounts the existence of a myriad of other alleged beings." It says in part the following.

    'To understand why "God does not exist" is a legitimate scientific statement, it's important to understand what the statement means in the context of science.'

    It "... is that this alleged entity (or God) has no place in any scientific equations, plays no role in any scientific explanations, cannot be used to predict any events, does not describe anything or force that has yet been detected, and there are no models of the universe in which its presence is either required, productive, or useful.

    What should be most obvious about the more technically accurate statement is that it isn't absolute. It does not deny for all time any possible existence of the entity or force in question; instead, it's a provisional statement denying the existence of any relevance or reality to the entity or force based on what we currently know. Religious theists may be quick to seize upon this and insist that it demonstrates that science cannot "prove" that God does not exist, but that requires far too strict of a standard for what it means to "prove" something scientifically.

    ... If God existed, there should be concrete evidence of His existence—not faith, but tangible, measurable, consistent evidence that can be predicted and tested using the scientific method. If we fail to find that evidence, then God cannot exist as defined."

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    On pages 6 and 7 of this topic thread, Sea Breeze (probably this site's foremost outspoken young Earth creationist critic of evolution) says that the science of genetics (combined with the idea of information theory) prove that mutations and natural selection could not have have resulted in macroevolution, but he is wrong.

    Yesterday I found a science essay article which presents very strong genetic evidence of what causes most macroevolution, including such having happened in a punctuated equilibrium manner! See https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7029956/ . It has an abstract of an article from February 2022 called "The Developmental Gene Hypothesis for Punctuated Equilibrium: Combined Roles of Developmental Regulatory Genes and Transposable Elements". It provides the answer I have been looking for years. It is similar to partial answers I have found years ago, but it is expansion of those. According to my understanding of the article, the cause of macroevolution in a punctuated equilibrium manner is as follows. Most the needed mutations for such happen in noncoding sections of the genome which acquired insertions of transposable elements (TE). Since that area is noncoding such mutations did not harm organisms. Later some of the insertions were transposed to in or near transcriptional and developmental genes. When such insertions were beneficial it resulted in sudden macroevolution (but when they were unfavorable the result was "... typically incompatible with life and often lead to miscarriage or serious functional impairment preventing further inheritance"). The DevReg genes were thus were high conserved, with only the beneficial changes being passed on from individuals' offspring beyond one generation. [Regarding one instance the article says the following. "In this instance, the variation intolerance of DevReg genes provides an active safeguard against mutational events. Surprisingly, CNE within long genes such as DevReg genes are not mutation cold spots despite their functional sensitivity. Instead, such mutations are typically incompatible with life and often lead to miscarriage or serious functional impairment preventing further inheritance. [41,42] "] The article says the following.

    'Theories of the genetics underlying Punctuated Equilibrium (PE) have been vague to date. Here we propose the Developmental Gene Hypothesis, which states that: 1) developmental regulatory (DevReg) genes are responsible for the orchestration of metazoan morphogenesis and their extreme conservation and mutation intolerance generates the equilibrium or stasis present throughout much of the fossil record; and 2) the accumulation of regulatory elements and recombination within these same genes—often derived from transposable elements—drives punctuated bursts of morphological divergence and speciation across metazoa. This two-part hypothesis helps to explain the features that characterize PE, providing a theoretical genetic basis for the once-controversial theory.

    ... Detractors of punctuated equilibrium have previously chided the theory as a mechanism with “no scientific use” as they claimed it could not be tested at the genetic level. [2] However, with the advent of large-scale genomic sequencing and extensive molecular and computational study of numerous genomes, our wealth of available data has grown substantially since the early battles over Gould and Eldredge’s theory. [3] Since that time we have been able to study not only transposable elements (TE) (i.e., “selfish DNA”) and their roles in molecular evolution, but also the subset of genes responsible for the regulation of morphogenesis reflected in the fossil record.

    Here, we propose that there is a native genetic complement to TE insertions leading to features of punctuated equilibria in both the vertebrate and invertebrate fossil records. Specifically, this complement lies within the developmental regulatory (DevReg) genes responsible for morphogenesis and their unique mutational patterns, as well as the elements that regulate their expression. The genes’ relative mutation intolerance suggests a means by which morphology is actively conserved even in the face of exaggerated TE activity. [4] Yet they also exhibit a clear history of TE insertion that is strongly correlated to the presence of conserved noncoding elements (CNE) and changes to gene regulation and phenotype by acting as promoters, enhancers, repressors, terminators, insulators, and post-transcriptional effectors.[47] In addition, TE-derived RNA may act as direct regulators of these important developmental genes, strongly reminiscent of Barbara McClintock’s “controlling elements”. [7,8] Alongside the TE-Thrust Hypothesis [9] and the TE-epigenomic arms race proposed by Zeh et al. [10], as well as the large body of work spearheaded by Eric Davidson [11,12] concerning the roles of the regulome in speciation, we believe the Developmental Gene Hypothesis may help explain the long periods of active morphological stasis within the fossil record bookended by rare TE-associated mutational events that have long lasting effects on phenotype and have been tightly conserved over evolutionary time [4,13] (Fig. 1).

    ... Although evolution of the eukaryotic exome has been relatively conserved across time, evolution of the regulome seems to account for considerable interspecies variation. [11,13] The regulome is both a seat of rapid evolutionary development, as in the case of species-specific TE regulatory exaptation, and extreme conservation in the form of conserved (CNE) and ultraconserved noncoding elements (UCNE). [1416] UCNE networks are likewise strongly conserved across species in the form of gene regulatory blocks surrounding important developmental genes. [17]

    ... Many of the UCNE are located in or near transcriptional and developmental genes, as are many of the younger less conserved noncoding elements unique to later phylogenetic branches, suggesting a strong directional selection for the retention and exaptation of potential noncoding elements in these regions [15,18]

    ... While genetic isolation and ultimately hybrid dysgenesis ensure speciation, the evolution of DevReg genes plays a fundamental role in the type of morphological divergence that originally inspired the Linnaean classification system. [45] ... it has subsequently been demonstrated that morphological evolution correlates better with regulatory gene divergence rather than with overall rates of molecular evolution. [4850] Thus, the variation intolerance we see in DevReg genes appears to be responsible for the significant periods of morphological stasis present in the fossil record. Meanwhile, other gene groups evolve at a more rapid, and perhaps more constant, rate.

    ... Since the publication of the theory of punctuated equilibrium, detractors have sometimes criticized its dependence on an imperfect fossil record and the lack of an underlying genetic theory. [1] Oliver and Greene [9] and Zeh et al. [10] made significant strides by proposing genetic and epigenetic mechanisms that help explain the long periods of stasis bookended by periods of comparatively rapid change. Likewise, the body of work by Eric Davidson clearly outlines numerous regulatory mechanisms leading to morphological divergence across species. [11,12] These works, however, do not recognize the active role DevReg genes play in maintaining morphological stasis, their propensity to collect TE-derived noncoding elements over time, or their tendency to be regulated by TE-derived RNA. [8] All of these presumably underlie changes in gene function and morphology relevant to the patterns within the fossil record first recognized by Gould and Eldredge. [3] The Developmental Gene Hypothesis helps to fill in these important gaps.

    ... Within mammals, there are strong links between TE activity and speciation. [56,57] As mentioned, TEs provide a prime source of potential regulatory material to the host genome and the primate lineage is an excellent example of such a relationship.

    ... TE insertions have also played an important role in the evolution of pregnancy, particularly in the decidualization of the connective tissue within the uterus. For instance, certain endogenous retroviruses (ERV) are highly expressed in mammalian uterus in a tissue-specific manner and, among other things, help to drive cell fusion within the trophoblast layers via action of the ERV-derived envelope glycoprotein, syncytin. [75,76] Interestingly, the Mabuya lizard, which evolved approximately 25 million years ago (mya), is viviparous and has an unusually mammalian-like placenta that also expresses an ERV-derived envelope glycoprotein functionally identical to mammalian syncytin. [77] Similarly, fossilized evidence of the Jurassic marine reptiles, ichthyosaurs, show they were also viviparous, indicating that live birth has evolved multiple times in the reptilian lineage and may commonly be linked with the exaptation of retroviruses (see Fig. 4).

    Thousands of other transposon-derived cis-regulatory elements have been identified that also regulate placental function, many of which have been exapted as hormone response elements (HRE). [78] For instance, Alu elements have been shown to house high-affinity binding sites for the estrogen, thyroid, and retinoic acid receptors. [79] SVA elements likewise appear to house HRE half-sites and also bind the glucocorticoid receptor. [80] Therefore, evidence suggests that both TE-derived HRE and ERV-derived envelope glycoproteins have played important roles in the evolution of mammalian pregnancy.

    ... 4. Conclusions and Outlook

    While punctuated equilibrium as a theory has stood the test of time, until now there has been no clear genetic explanation for the trends present within the fossil record. Work by Oliver and Greene [9], Zeh et al. [10], and Davidson [11] provide admirable starting points and, we think, vital pieces of the larger story.

    The Developmental Gene Hypothesis, however, proposes a clear and testable mechanism for stasis via the strong purifying selection acting upon DevReg genes. Likewise, a measurable record of transposable element insertion, exaptation, and recombination within these same genes provides a primary mechanism for bursts of adaptation and evidence of accelerated evolution in these genes across select species lends further support to this notion.'

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    https://avianhybrids.wordpress.com/2020/01/23/a-genetic-model-for-puntuated-equilibria/ has a brief article which includes an easy to understand very brief summary of the Developmental Gene Hypothesis.

    http://web01.cabeard.k12.in.us/science/APBiology/bc_campbell_biology_7/0,7052,4350321-,00.html has a much older article called "Unit Four: Steven M. Stanley, Evolution Interview: Steven M. Stanley" which is informative about the theory of punctuated equilibrium theory of macroevolution. it says in part the following.

    "It seems that the debate between a gradual and a punctuated view of evolution is not just about tempo. It's also a debate about mechanism.

    It is to a degree, but there has been much misunderstanding about this. Some geneticists have assumed that paleontologists adopting a punctuational position argue for a totally new genetic mechanism for evolution. That's not really true. The punctuational view is quite compatible with the view that natural selection operating on mutations over a period of generations is the prevailing mode of transitions. It's simply a matter of our compressing this into a shorter time and considering it as happening in small populations.

    One of the basic notions of the modern synthesis has been that large, well-established species with subdivided populations offer the most effective conditions for evolution to occur. The punctuational scheme would argue that small populations evolve not just as parts of a whole complex that's evolving, but as individual units that are evolving and diverging rapidly. In fact, Ernst Mayr, a major proponent of the modern synthesis, laid the foundation for this whole viewpoint as early as 1954. He published a paper that suggested that the lack of continuity in the fossil record could well be a result of change taking place in small populations rapidly on the geological scale of time; yet the idea was never assimilated into the modern synthesis.

    So transitional forms are so rarely observed in the fossil record because most speciation events involve very small splinter populations separated from a larger established population?

    I think that's often the case. Evolution happens rapidly in small, localized populations, so we're not likely to see it in the fossil record. If you think about successful speciation events in terms of local diversity, there is a very revealing and simple notion. If you could sit and watch a particular group of animals or plants, say, in a family that includes 50 species, through 5 million years of time, each of those species would give rise to only one other species, on the average. Speciation is a very rare event. Because biologists often focus on the immediacy of things, they sometimes overlook how improbable and rare a speciation event actually is."

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    " Speciation is a very rare event." really ?

    35 new Species have been observed to appear in the last few decades.

  • punkofnice
    punkofnice
    Dissy - Hi punkofnice. Lately in thread I have been making posts about nutritional/medicinal supplements which seem to prolong good health and which seem to prolong lifespan.

    Sorry. I missed this 1st time around. That is an interesting subject.

    I sometimes pick and munch on a bit of Yarrow that grows wild in the grass. Have to mind that the dogs haven't left their 'scent' on it tho.

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    Phizzzy, please list the names of those 35 new species, if you have the time to do so. Are they truly new species, or merely old species which were newly discovered by humans. Sometimes news articles imply that newly discovered species are species which newly came into existence, but if no human was around to see them come into existence how can anyone know they hadn't been in existence for hundreds or thousands or tens of thousands of years prior to their discovery?

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    Atheists and naturalists what are the best ways we can convince people there is no personal God? What are the best ways we can convince people of scientific naturalism? What are the best ways we can defeat Christianity and all of other organized religions which teach that supernatural beings exist? Is there there a better to achieve such than by debating with theists online?

    Would it be more effective if led our lives in harmony with scientific knowledge and sensible philosophy to such an extent that atheists became more demonstrably more successful in life than theists? If we were to achieve such, would such attract a great many theists to investigating atheism and naturalism to see why atheists and naturalists are (in the hypothetical future) so successful in life? Would that make such theists more willing to accept the reasoning of atheists and naturalists? What do you think?

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