Sources of John's vivid imagery (page 2)

venus

Doug Mason,

You know you exist because you think, perceive, plan, formulate logic, abstract reasoning etc which are not the characteristics of matter. Science does not discover the self; but it is the self that discovers science. You are an individual, and the word individual is from indivisible, Latin [in + dividuus “divisible”, from divido “divide”. Individual is all about your immaterial substratum on which body is sustained. This substratum is indivisible, minuter than the minutest, not composed of parts, cannot be destroyed. This applies to God who is also an individual made of qualities like we are. The only difference: among many individuals one would be Supreme because humans cannot say ‘no one superior to us exists.’ Supreme Soul would have supreme qualities, and would have a residence that matches His Supreme status.

God is individual, simple in composition, atom-sized, hence anthropomorphic representation of God is untruth. This is where all religions went wrong. Things such as imagery, symbols .. inadequate to explain the Supreme.

kepler

Very interesting topic.

I just noticed on a recent comment a reference to the "seven planets" in astrology.

While there might be a current day reference to seven or eight, in ancient times no one was aware of Uranus, Neptune or Pluto. At that regard, I don't think seven was then connected to heaven.

Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn - Unless you count some evening and morning stars...

Hanged Man

The sun and moon are part of the "seven" planets....even thought they are not planets.

The seven planets of astrology are not the actual planets and luminaries....but rather "concepts".

Men are from Mars...

Mars is the god of war....hence we have phrases like "martial" law...."martial" arts.....all coming from Mars......Each Spring equinox happens in the sign of Aries (ruled by Mars)....in the month of March.....the month of "march" comes from Mars....

Women are from Venus....

From the planet "Venus" we get "venerate"......connected with love and desire..."I'm your Venus ,I'm your fire...your desire".....Venus is also "Aphrodite"....and again she is connected with love and desire....."aphrodisiac" comes from Aphrodite........however.....you can have to much of a good thing...and catch a "venereal" (from Venus) disease.

You can work out the other "planets" influence by the words that come from them......saturnine,mercurial,jovial,lunacy,(bright,sunny,something "dawns" on you..."light" on the subject etc).

The seven virtues and vices come from the seven planets.......the seven planets all have a "good" and "bad" influence.

Hanged Man

The six days of creation are the six months of the royal arch.

Look at the start of the "arch"....it starts in the sign of Aries.....this is the "DAWN" of the year.......where the sun passes over the horizon....before that the earth is in darkness......whether in the daily cycle or yearly cycle.

Then when the sun passes over the threshold.... (day)horizon/(year)equator.....then light has returned........so let there be light..... "Fiat Lux"....then we have the six "days" of creation...the six zodiac signs above in the royal arch......and at the autumnal equinox (the seventh day)......it all stops......or "god" rests......and the earth goes into darkness and decay once more......until next spring that is.

Doug Mason

What an amazing array of information. I am impressed.

I in no way pretend to know the answers, but my hope is that we are all inspired to read and research honestly and openly. And to then live our lives according to our own convictions, and to extend to others the same respect that we want for ourselves. My desire is to inspire research so that others will experience the excitement of challenge and discovery.

I believe Revelation had to have immediate meaning to the hearers, therefore any understanding of the narratives and the symbols need to be looked at through the directly immediate intended hearers. There can be no doubt that John drew on the supernatural imagery they were familiar with. But we must beware of imposing the ideas of different and subsequent communities upon that time.

As for accommodating the date of Revelation? My initial reaction is that we do not know what was originally written (which is true for all of those writings). The earliest written material comes to us from maybe 300 years later, and much had been done to the material during that time. I do not know the answer to that difficulty.

It is my view that a symbol represented either Satan or Rome (maybe as agents of Satan??) and that John built on previously known images.

I have looked online for the book, "Ezekiel in the Apocalypse", without success. It intrigues me.

In the process of searching, I came across this one, which might be promising. When you select it, it downloads directly (at least it did to my computer).

https://www.era.lib.ed.ac.uk/bitstream/handle/1842/8887/Luo1999.pdf

Doug

Doug Mason

Regarding the planets, Venus -- the Morning Star -- was known as "Lucifer". Jesus thus gives himself that name -- Rev 22:16.

Doug

Hanged Man

Jesus is the morning star....or Lucifer......it's all perspective........ask the "righteous" pharisees if Jesus was from God or satan...

Satan is the opposite of the status quo......very needed..........from pain comes gain.....from "satan" comes wisdom.

We are all Satan to the "righteous" watchtower society.....to a mouse...a cat is satan....yet the same cat sits on our lap and purrs.

Satan isn't a real being.....it only means opposition.

If only the watchtower would consider the words of all of us "satans".....they would learn......however they choose to remain in the darkness......and how great that darkness is.

Hanged Man

Jesus was the light bearer....he came from above.....and "fell" into our realm to help and enlighten us.

He was Lucifer.....which merely means "bearer/carrier of light"

Bobcat

I have looked online for the book, "Ezekiel in the Apocalypse", without success. It intrigues me.
In the process of searching, I came across this one, which might be promising. When you select it, it downloads directly (at least it did to my computer).

Thank you Doug. The one by Ruiz supposedly showed verbal links to Ezekiel in Rev chapters 16-19. On Amazon I get nothing but "not available."

Doug Mason

Bobcat.

I looked at many places but without any joy. Such as at:

http://judaism-and-rome.cnrs.fr/ezekiel-apocalypse-transformation-prophetic-language-revelation-16-17-19-10

Were you able to download that PDF of the thesis that I gave the link for? It's searchable and you will find comments about Jean-Pierre Ruiz in it.

Also, a search for his name (in full) will tell you where he is currently -- and possibly contactable(?). I see that he is on a YouTube video, but I did not look at it.

Doug

Sources of John's vivid imagery

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