Refuting the Alleged Evidence of Jesus' Resurrection

by truth_b_known 35 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • HowTheBibleWasCreated
    HowTheBibleWasCreated

    Not this dumb video again! Why do I have to debunk this video everytime I come to this forum!

    1. A flat out lie is made that every schoolar accepts 1 Corinthians and Galatians as Pauline. You must mean fart erhman

    2. The first half of 1 Corinthians 15 is a very late interpolation. Christian schoolars of the past have noted this

    3. No one knows of Paul's letters before marcion parades them around 140

    4. Alexander is a bad comparison since people of his own lifetime are prolific writers

    5. How the hell do you try to date Galatians and 1 Corinthians... Oh wait I know Acts. Of course. Let's take a document that no one knows until the late second century to date works not known until the early second century. Ok....

    6. Why not use a contemporary of Jesus l. Like Philo? Oh wait because the Jesus Philo knows is a heavenly logos. He was in the same room as Jesus in the gospels. Never mentioned him

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    Philo is an interesting character. He was a fore-runner of Fred Franz with all his type and anti-type sophistry.

    Jerome wrote this about him:

    Concerning this man the following statement is in circulation among the Greeks: h Platwn filwnizei h, filwn platonizei (either Plato philonizes or Philo platonizes), that is to say, either Plato follows Philo, or Philo follows Plato, so great is the similarity of thought and style.

    Philo used allegory to fuse and harmonize Greek philosophy and Judaism. His method followed the practices of both Pharisaic Jewish exegesis and Stoic philosophy. "The sophists of literalness," as he calls them, "opened their eyes superciliously" when he explained to them the marvels of his exegesis. In other words, those who simply read the bible literally were made to realize just how little they knew once Philo expounded on his allegorical (spiritual) interpretations. Sound familiar? This is exactly what the Watchtower did to us, especially with all of Franz' writings. They allegorize scriptures that don't fit the WT narrative, or use this device when introducing new concepts. It is a very ancient technique.

    The Essenes (keepers of thousands of dead-sea scrolls) were biblical literalists as were Antioch Christian believers (where the term "Christians" was first applied)

    Philo wrote extensively on the first 5 books of the OT and found allegory in most every passage. He was someone you could listen to for hours and shoot the bull with. He regarded the physical nature of man as something defective and as an obstacle to his development that can never be fully surmounted, but still as something indispensable in view of the nature of his being. Philo is not entirely certain whether the body in itself or merely in its preponderance over the spirit is evil. But the body in any case is a source of danger. His concept of the Logos as God's creative principle apparently influenced early Christology. To him Logos was God's "blueprint for the world", a governing plan.

    This is similar to the heretical movement called Christ Consciousness that we see bantered around by pseudo-intellectuals today.

    I know there is some reason to believe that Philo may have met the Apostle Mark. But, I never heard that he may have met Jesus. Can you expand on this statement: "He was in the same room as Jesus in the gospels."


  • truth_b_known
    truth_b_known
    1. Roman historian Tacitus (Annals 15.44), c. 100AD.
    Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome

    [Tacitus wrote] at a time when Christians themselves had come to believe that Jesus had suffered under Pilate. There are three reasons for holding that Tacitus is here simply repeating what Christians had told him. First, he gives Pilate a title, procurator [without saying procurator of what! FRZ], which was current only from the second half of the first century. Had he consulted archives which recorded earlier events, he would surely have found Pilate there designated by his correct title, prefect. Second, Tacitus does not name the executed man Jesus, but uses the title Christ (Messiah) as if it were a proper name. But he could hardly have found in archives a statement such as “the Messiah was executed this morning.” Third, hostile to Christianity as he was, he was surely glad to accept from Christians their own view that Christianity was of recent origin, since the Roman authorities were prepared to tolerate only ancient cults. - G.A. Wells The Historical Evidence for Jesus; p.16

    2. Jewish historian Josephus (Antiquities 18.3), c. 90AD.
    Now, there was about this time Jesus, a wise man...a doer of wonderful works—a teacher. when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.
    • No loyal Pharisee would say Jesus had been the Messiah.
    • Josephus did not believe in Jesus as the Messiah, i.e., as “the Christ.”
    • The text does not appear in earlier manuscripts of Antiquities of the Jews and is believed to be a forgery.

    “Enough of the writings of the authors named in the foregoing list remains to form a library. Yet in this mass of Jewish and Pagan literature, aside from two forged passages in the works of a Jewish author, and two disputed passages in the works of Roman writers, there is to be found no mention of Jesus Christ.” John E. Remsburg, The Christ: A Critical Review and Analysis of the Evidence of His Existence

    The writes referred to by Remsburg who lived during or within a century of 30CE -

    • Josephus Juvenal
    • Lucanus
    • Philo-Judæus
    • Martial
    • Epictetus
    • Seneca
    • Persius
    • Hermogones Silius Italicus
    • Pliny Elder
    • Plutarch
    • Statius
    • Arrian
    • Pliny Younger
    • Ptolemy
    • Petronius Tacitus
    • Appian
    • Dion Pruseus
    • Justus of Tiberius
    • Phlegon
    • Paterculus
    • Apollonius
    • Phædrus
    • Suetonius
    • Quintilian Valerius Maximus
    • Pausanias
    • Dio Chrysostom
    • Lysias
    • Florus Lucius
    • Columella
    • Pomponius Mela
    • Lucian
    • Valerius Flaccus
    • Appion of Alexandria
    • Quintius Curtius
    • Damis
    • Theon of Smyrna
    • Aulus Gellius
    • Favorinus
  • HowTheBibleWasCreated
    HowTheBibleWasCreated

    Seabreeze Yeah philo was cousin to the Herods. In the early 30s he spent his time in the holy land. Now think of this. Passover. Where is Philo? In Jerusalem of course. Who is he with? Family. Where is Jesus taken in Luke 23? Who questions Jesus? Herod. What is Herod in Jerusalem for? Passover m who is in that room? I'll let you make conclusions

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze
    [Tacitus wrote] at a time when Christians themselves had come to believe that Jesus had suffered under Pilate.

    This statement has as an assumption that belief, (and not eye-witness testimony) was the source of the point that Pilate ordered Jesus whipping and crucifixion). Why is he poisoning the well right out of the gate like this before he offers any reasoning? Seems pretty biased from the get go.

    There are three reasons for holding that Tacitus is here simply repeating what Christians had told him. First, he gives Pilate a title, procurator [without saying procurator of what! FRZ], which was current only from the second half of the first century. Had he consulted archives which recorded earlier events, he would surely have found Pilate there designated by his correct title, prefect.

    This reasoning seems particularly deceptive. There is no evidence of any procurator (tax-collector) governing any province, without also holding the office of prefect or its equivalent. There are examples of governors being referred to as only prefect or procurator but in reality scholars know they were both.

    Second, Tacitus does not name the executed man Jesus, but uses the title Christ (Messiah) as if it were
    a proper name. But he could hardly have found in archives a statement such as “the Messiah was executed
    this morning.”

    By the Time Tacitus wrote this around 100 AD, the group of Jesus' followers had long been called a derogatory name "Christians" for decades. It meant "little christs".

    Although it started out as a derogatory term, the name stuck. So, by the time Tacitus wrote his history, using the word "Christus" it would have definitely been reasonable for him to use this term either as a passive polemic, description of the leader of the christians, or both.

    Third, hostile to Christianity as he was,
    he was surely glad to accept from Christians their own view that Christianity was of recent origin, since the Roman authorities were prepared to tolerate
    only ancient cults. - G.A. Wells The Historical Evidence for Jesus; p.16

    Huh? I thought he was arguing that Christians were an unreliable source. Now, all the sudden they are reliable in stating that their belief was recent (which corresponds to the Resurrection event that Christians maintained was the basis for their faith)

    I find this guy's reasons for rejecting Tacitus to be pretty lame.

    By the way, Josephus was a Roman sympathizer and opportunist and likely not a pharisee.

    "he does not feature the Pharisees in any of his narratives: they hardly figure in his earliest work (the Judean War), becoming significant players only in latter third of the Judean Antiquities-Life, written in the mid-90s; but then they disappear again from his last and most vigorous defense of Judaism.

    More importantly, what he writes about Judaism and its laws (or "constitution"), which is a lot, shows no evidence of any Pharisaic bias. We might have suspected Pharisaic influences if he had embraced the special "tradition of the fathers" accepted by Pharisees, for example, or clearly described resurrection from the dead.

    But he does not. In fact, a number of his passages are openly hostile toward the Pharisees."

    Passive polemics were common in ancient literature, kinda like Pilate mockingly posting a sign above Jesus' head "King of the Jews" . Pilate didn't really believe he was a King, at least not one to ever worry about.



  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze
    Where is Philo?

    His name is Philo of Alexandria (Egypt). That's where he lived. A long way from Jerusalem. Wouldn't closer Primary and Secondary sources not known for embellished spiritualizations, and sophistry be better sources?

    Why choose this guy unless it is to support a bias?

  • truth_b_known
    truth_b_known

    Thanks for bringing my attention to Philo of Alexandria. Interesting. It looks like there were at least 2 sects of Christianity existing during the time of Paul writing the Epistles. One sect says the Jesus of the Gospels are an allegory to which Paul refutes.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kn7TEoA9ark

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    My, I haven't heard that much baloney is quite some time .

    Dr. Richard Carrier, PhD – A creepy, dishonest hypocrite

    You Wrote:

    It looks like there were at least 2 sects of Christianity existing during the time of Paul writing the Epistles.

    Not really. While some license was taken with allegory from the Christian school in Alexandria, orthodoxy prevailed. But, the Alexandrian stream of thought and manuscripts did eventually find permanent lodging in the Roman Catholic Church.

    The Christian school in Antioch (and it's descendants in the Eastern Byzantium tradition as well as indigenous European Christians) on the other hand, tended to stick with the plain literal reading of scripture. We see similar things today. Amillenialists are not just Catholic. About one third of evangelicals view the 1000 yr. Kingdom of Christ as allegorical.

    But, the essentials of salvation are all agreed upon by evangelicals - by grace, through faith.

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    Sea Breeze, I don't see how your link about allegations about Carrier relates to the rest of the content of your post, thus why did you post that link?

    It saddens me that Dr. Richard Carrier, PhD. has apparently engaged in certain kinds of sexual behavior, and that he is alleged to be hypocritical about some of those matters. I was shocked when I learned of such things since I have been deeply impressed by what I have read in his books that prove there is no personal god. I also had a favorable impression of him when I met him in person.

    I read much of his book called Sense and Goodness Without God: A Defense of Metaphysical Naturalism and the book greatly impresses me. It makes an extremely strong case against the existence of personal god, especially that of a 3 O type of god. It also makes a good case for a basis for ethics that is consistent with metaphysical naturalism and with living by knowledge of science.

    I met Carrier in person at a lecture by him presented at a meeting held by a Humanist organization in the city in \which I was born. His lecture was impressive and I talked to him face to face in person after his lecture. My impression of him back then was that he is a good man and a very smart man. I was very impressed by what he said about syncretism in its relation to how Christian came to be. The lecture was about Carrier's book called On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reason for Doubt (2014). I also read much of what he wrote in some books edited by John W. Loftus and I am also very impressed with that content.

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    Sea Breeze, now I know why you made comment about Carrier and posted the link about him. I now know because a moment ago the starting image of a video by Carrier included in the post by thruth_b_known loaded onto my computer which has a slow internet connection.

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