The Jewish perspective of the OT according to poster David_Jay

by deegee 44 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • GrreatTeacher

    I thought it was 587 BC ?

  • David_Jay

    The deportation began in 597 with the destruction of Judah in 587/586.

    Sorry, but I have been gone for so long that I had forgotten that Witnesses place such emphasis on their 607 date that they mark the exile as beginning with the fall of Judah.

    The fall of Judah was indeed in 586, and this is the date that is affirmed by a plethora of independent witnesses. But for Jews we mark the Babylonian exile with the first series of deportations, which was 597. I truly meant to focus and write 587/586 in some places, such as writing about the year confirmed by so many independent witnesses, but I am so far removed from being a Witness that I just kept writing 597, for that is how Jews mark this point in history, not with the actual fall.

    Just to repeat, the 607 date is indeed wrong, and the confirmed date for the fall of Judah is 587/586 BCE. But the Jews count from the deportation onward.

    A sidepoint: I was wondering when I was going to be so far removed from from Watchtower World that I was going to make a slip like that. Hooray, I am already there!

  • David_Jay

    And, by the way, before someone asks, my writing "586/587" is due to some previous dating of the event due to counting years according to an older method.

    Counting accession years, an older traditional figure has been 586 BCE for the year in which Jerusalem fell. But the date according to records has been verified as being the 10th of Ab (25 August) 587 BCE. Some Jewish figures still use the 586 date since our calendar begins with an Autumn new year day, making the fall of Jerusalem in the period where both Jewish calendar years cross.

  • azor

    Who the hell cares. A bunch of horrific legends of a people that stole from other tales. It truly is a disgusting book that has enslaved and brutalized billions.

  • David_Jay


    If someone had taken the legends of America's founders and started a religion with it, a religion that eventually caused division and hatred and suffering in the world, that virtually enslaved millions to its whims, is it the book's fault?

    And what if this religion had no Americans in it? It was neither founded by Americans, and the people in it never really checked with Americans to see if their take on the legends was correct.

    Yes, this book of American legends may have been misused, and the stories therein are not factual: George Washington never chopped down a cherry tree as a boy who 'cannot tell a lie;' Lincoln was never born in a tiny log cabin; there were no such people as Paul Bunyon or Johnny Appleseed; Betsy Ross never invented the American flag, and Paul Revere's midnight ride never happened the way it is told in this book.

    Okay, it's a book of legends. And the book has been misused to enslave people to a religion based on teachings that claimed the legends were fact.

    But the Americans never taught that these legends were fact. The Americans were never enslaved by these same legends either. In fact, the Americans built a society not based on these legends, but one that created these lessons to teach different lessons than the one this false religion did. These legends helped America grow, their cause for freedom to grow stronger, and inspired hope in the American people.

    But because this religion took its legends and based a religion on them and forced others to follow their interpretation on it, well that is not the fault of either the Americans or their legends, is it?

    The millions of adherents to this new religion could have checked with the Americans any time to see if what they were learning was true. But instead the members of this false religion not only ignored what the Americans taught, these members treated the Americans as condemned to hell, etc.

    Do you see where I am going with this?

    I'm sorry that someone took the legends of my people, the Jews, and got you involved in a religion that by misusing and twisting the legends caused you and countless others such great suffering. But many who believed these twisted interpretations also persecuted us during the centuries. Antisemitism is literally an invention of these legend robbers, and the Holocaust was the culmination of their hatred for us.

    It wasn't our legends that enslaved others anymore than our own stories caused us to be thrown into concentration camps and slaughtered. It was not the people who wrote these stories or their descendants who did this. The enslavement and hatred and violence came not from our legends, but was caused by those who took them and reinterpreted them and ignored us when we told them and tried to tell the world that this interpretation was wrong. People ignored us then, and people are ignoring us now.

    Again, the same library of books never enslaved us as our culture and religion are not based on it. If the book is at fault for enslaving and beguiling millions, it would have done the same to us. It hasn't.

    I am so sorry someone took the stories of my people and caused you any hurt and treated you so badly in the name of these tales. It was not us, however. It was not our our stories themselves that did this.

    And I am writing this information because you are absolutely right: who the hell cares? Why bother to ask the Jews about these things? What do they know? It's all their fault for writing those damn things anyway.

    That is why I am writing this. Because people don't care to check with the people who originally wrote it, our stories will continue to cause the problems in the world by those who twist them.

    But if a man uses fiberglass for insulation and doesn't read the instructions (because "who the hell cares" what the manufacturers have to say about their own product, right?), is he really right for being mad at the fiberglass for any harm that comes from his own mishandling of it? If you never go to the manufacturers for direction, whose fault is it that the fiberglass causes suffering?

  • azor

    TOTC it's really simple. People did what the Bible promoted and instructed. Your apologetics for it is simply embarrassing as is all apologetics.

  • David_Jay

    I am not involved in apologetics, which you would have known if you had bothered to read things from the beginning.

    Much of what I am writing is not indicative of my own personal views (in fact, a lot of this would look quite different if I was talking about my personal convictions on these very same matters). A religious apology is about defending one’s religious views. I am not here to defend or promote any religious view or even the Scriptures.

    I'm trying to answer the OP's request by giving him a Jewish perspective on the matters that the OP asked about. Jews don't have absolute dogmas, so to offer what that perspective is would mean that I am going to be writing a lot about things in an objective manner. I can't defend a lot of this because I don't subscribe to a lot of it myself. An apology would require that.

  • tor1500

    Hi David Jay,

    Thanks for your reply. I have an old set of encyclopedia's that I got when I was a child....a millions years ago....they say is was 587 or something like that but not 607...What I'm looking for is somewhere I can write to in Jerusalem/Israel, like a museum or a hall of records. Again, go to the source...I know it won't do any good because the org. is so arrogant they think they know more about Jewish history than the Jews themselves...

    They are so prideful about this date, but as we know...pride comes before the fall.

    I'm short of going to Jerusalem myself...come back & then share...then dare them to dispute...

    I'll keep researching....or do you know of any institutions on that side of the world I can contact ?


  • David_Jay


    Ah, that's easy. You want to contact the Rockefeller Archaeological Museum in Jerusalem.

    Now, there is no "hall of records" or any sole document with the date as it is figured via a whole set of dates and records (I believe they actually go back from the fall of Babylon itself, the established pivot date of that era in history), and they likely don't have anything as you said that would wake up the Jehovah's Witnesses. But they are an excellent source on the archaeological history of the Hebrews.

    And if they can't help you, they should be able to lead you to sources that can. But Jews are not the source for the date itself as it was figured by secular historians, archaeologists and the like, not by something kept by the Jews (just like Americans as a whole aren't the source or have a "hall of records" for all the dates involving events in their history).

  • tor1500


    Thanks so much for the site...I'll will check into it...You have been so helpful. I don't think anything would wake up a witness. I'm a witness....but I'm fully aware....I've said it on this site many times...many are not witnesses because of the doctrine, they are witnesses because they believe it is really directed by God...& because in their minds, it's the truth..Let me share something that I read about the Truth...

    The truth is a person, not teachings or doctrines. John 14:6: I am the way and the truth & the life. No one comes to the father except through me. or John 1:9-10....

    I've always thought to myself...why are people looking outside themselves for the truth...the truth is in you...not in a building, or GB's.

    What do you think....but I do thank you for is all your replies.


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