Will the G.B. ever give a "new light" on Romans 6:7?

by BoogerMan 10 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  BoogerMan

  Jehovah' Witnesses are taught to believe that Romans 6:7 refers to a person's own literal death:

  Watchtower May 15th 1982, pp. 8,9 - "The Bible explains that at death a person is set free or released from any sins he committed."
  

  Hmmm, it's interesting that only one of the org's quotes below includes a reference to Paul's words. Wonder why?

  w06 4/1 p. 30 par. 16 - Complete immersion appropriately symbolizes the dramatic change we have made in our life- we figuratively die to our former life course and begin life anew in the service of God.
  

  w92 3/15 p. 17 par. 19 - When a baptismal candidate is buried under the water and then lifted out of it, he dies figuratively to his former course of life and is raised to a new way of life,

  w88 8/15 p. 27 - While under the water, he, in effect, dies to his former course of life, and on coming out of the water, he becomes, as it were, alive to a new course of self-sacrifice in Jehovah’s service. (Compare Romans 6:2-4; 12:1; Philippians 3:16.)

  w88 6/15 p. 29 - While under the water, it is as if they have died to their former course of life. On coming out of the water, it is as if they are now alive to a new course of self-sacrifice in service to God.

  w88 3/15 p. 14 par. 18 - Going under the water well illustrates a person’s dying to his former course of conduct. His being lifted up out of the water pictures his being raised to a new way of life.

  w88 1/15 p. 28 - Water baptism denotes dying to our former course of conduct and being raised to a way of life that harmonizes with the divine will.

  w78 11/1 p. 16 par. 19 - By going down into the water, being covered by it, we are, as it were, buried. We die as to our former course of action;

  w74 10/1 p. 607 - In order to be anointed with holy spirit and accepted as spiritual sons of God, they had to die to their former course in life as imperfect humans, have their sins forgiven by God and have human perfection imputed to them.

  w67 12/1 pp. 710-711 - That symbolic act speaks eloquently of your becoming dead to your own selfish former course of action (when dipped below the water), and henceforth to live in harmony with God’s will (coming up out of the water).

  w60 5/1 p. 264 - Thus, they keep the important symbol of baptism—that of one’s voluntarily dying to his former course of life and being raised up to a new life in God’s service.

  w58 8/1 p. 472 par 2 - The manner in which Jesus was completely submerged or hidden in Jordan’s water well illustrated how Jesus became buried as dead to his former course of earthly life.

  w56 3/15 p. 177 par. 4 - Do they forget that when they made their dedication to God and symbolized it by water baptism they died to their former course of life?

  w56 7/1 p. 404 par. 8 - Being lowered by John into the water backward and completely submerged in the water well illustrated how Jesus had become dead and buried to his former course in earthly life.

  kl chap. 18 p. 176 par. 11 - As you are submerged, or “buried,” beneath the water, it is as though you have died to your former course of life.
  
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  Rattigan350

  Romans 6:7 is in a letter that Paul wrote to the Romans.

  Why should we care or pay any heed to it?
• 

  BoogerMan

  You cared enough - to comment.
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  aqwsed12345

  Romans 6:6: The old man: a specific expression of the Apostle Paul (Eph. 4:22; Col. 3:9), and it signifies man when under the domination of sin, and on him is the wrath of God. The old man was crucified with Christ: he died with Him with that painful death by which Christ destroyed the domination of sin. May the body of sin be destroyed: the body that surrendered itself to the dominion of sin, such a body may be destroyed, so that it may no longer stand under the dominion of sin. For we know that Jesus' crucifixion is also our crucifixion, or at least should be, as long as we deny our old sinful nature inherited from Adam, so that in us, all guilt may be destroyed, and we no longer serve sin as slaves to a master. The old man, the man descended from Adam, our corrupt nature, with its errors and sinful desires. Christ crucified them, as it were, with Himself, because He suffered for them and merited for us the grace of transformation. We ourselves must crucify them, by denying them and striving to gradually eradicate them. The body of sin, in us, our whole sinful life, its members the individual desires (as per John Ambrose).

  Romans 6:7. For he who died (to sin in baptism) has been freed from sin, therefore has been purified, and remains pure. If natural death frees a man from the debt of sin, the same holds true for mystical death.

  Romans 6:8. We will live: this is not primarily about the future resurrection, but about the Christian's new life, which by its nature is eternal life.

  Russell argued in the 1890s that the serpent (Satan) in Eden debated the immortality of the soul. Which of course is not true, but we'll look at it soon, but first, let's take a brief conceptual overview.

  The first human pair was free from the compulsion of death before the fall. Exemption from the compulsion of death is not entirely synonymous with immortality. So the first human could have died even without sin if he ended up in a situation incompatible with life (e.g., drowns, falls from a great height, gets decapitated). Violent death was a possibility, deriving from his physical nature.

  Exemption from the compulsion of death means that for man (and probably the whole living world) natural death (aging) and disease would have been unknown. St. Augustine makes a precise distinction when he defines the gift of human immortality: in its original state, man was "able not to die" (posse non mori). For true immortality, or the fact that one "cannot die" (non posse mori), is only in God (August. Gen. against. VI. 25,36).

  God warned Adam not to eat from the 'tree of the knowledge of good and evil,' or he would die that day (Gen 2:17). Adam and Eve ate from it, but did not die a biological death that day, as they lived for a long time (Gen 5:5). However, Adam lost communion with God (he was expelled from Eden) and eternal life (he could no longer eat from the tree of life, Gen 3:23-24). Adam's (man's) death "on that day" was a spiritual-religious death (cf. Eph 2:1), which then led to biological death.

  Death, both spiritual and biological, spread to all of Adam's descendants, to every human, as all have sinned and continue to sin (Rom 5:12-14, 1 Cor 15:22,56). However, the phrase "the wages of sin is death" (Rom 6:23) does not mean that death is a punishment for sin from God, but rather that the wages received for serving sin is death, as opposed to eternal life, which can be freely received as a gift from God (based on the context, the question is: whom does the believer want to serve, sin or God?).

  So what they quote does not exactly fit here, since it was not about the immortality of the soul, but about the original grace gift given to the first human pair, which they lost.
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  Sea Breeze

  In spite of the general belief among JW's .....The WT said this in w85 12/1 p. 11 :
  
  

  While still living in the flesh, these “righteous ones” undergo a symbolic death. The apostle Paul explains: ...Therefore we were buried with him through our baptism into his death, .. . . because we know that our old personality was impaled with him ...For he who has died has been acquitted from his sin.”​—Romans 6:2-7.

  That is a great quote to have because the hope of every JW that I know is (A) survive armageddon; or (B) die so that you get a "clean slate". Hope in Jesus is far down the list if ever mentioned at all.
  
  Of course the opposite is true. Hebrews 9: 27 says that we all must face judgment AFTER we die. And since scripture says that "all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags" (literally menstrual clothing or cloth), then we have a personal problem. Which is why we need a personal savior.
  
  My grandmother died while taking a nap. She was found with an Awake magazine open on her chest. Naturally we all assumed that was the best possible way to go and that her resurrection into paradise was surely guaranteed.
  
  Personal death is the real hope of every JW.... if they die before the Big A. Jesus is not personally needed. In wacky WT land, Jesus fulfilled some obsure legal requirement that no one can explain much less believe in.
  
  Dying is really all you have to do as a JW. It is a heretical doctrine of self-atonement. The WT lets members continue to believe this even though they have said that the death in Romans 6: 7 is "symbolic".
  
  So sad.
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  BoogerMan

  @ Sea Breeze - Thanks so much for that little gem which I missed - w85 12/1, p.11.

  What an excellent article for JW's to read and consider! For example, p. 9 par. 6:

  "By his undeserved kindness, Jehovah accepted Jesus’ sacrifice in behalf of Adam’s descendants. It was an equivalent, or corresponding, sacrifice seeing that, as a perfect man, Jesus bought back what the perfect man Adam lost."

  If Jesus' sacrifice was equivalent/corresponding to what Adam lost for his descendants, namely everlasting life on earth, then how do 144,000 of Adam's descendants miraculously get a free pass into heaven - as kings? 🤔

  It doesn't correspond, does it?
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  aqwsed12345

  1Timothy 2:6 in the original text there is no "corresponding", this is also one of the infamous Bible forgery inserts in the NWT. Check THIS. While in the WTS theology the ramsom is of equal value, Jesus gives more than the restoration of Adam's perfect condition to those who believe in Him (Romans 5:15-16). Check these:

  • The significance of the “Antilytron”
  • Was Adam created perfect?

  But why did God not prevent the first man from sinning? St. Leo the Great responds, "Christ's inexpressible grace gave us blessings better than those the demon's envy had taken away." and St. Thomas Aquinas wrote, "There is nothing to prevent human nature's being raised up to something greater, even after sin; God permits evil in order to draw forth some greater good. Thus St. Paul says, 'Where sin increased, grace abounded all the more'; and the Exsultet sings, 'O happy fault,. . . which gained for us so great a Redeemer!'"

  Check THIS too.

  Whoever believes, God declares them justified (Rom 3:22-26), adopts them as His child (Jn 1:12-13, Gal 3:26, 4:6, Rom 8:15-16), is born of God (1Jn 5:1 cf. Jn 3:1-8), has received the Spirit (Jn 7:37-39, 1Cor 12:13-14), is sealed and anointed with Him (Eph 1:13, 2Cor 1:21-22), God dwells in them (Jn 14:17, Eph 3:17, 2Jn 9). All this is the work of God (Phil 1:6), whoever trusts in Him will not perish (Jn 3:16,10:28-30, 1Pt 1:3-9, Jude 24). Believers have one, common hope (Eph 4:3-6), the faith of the apostles and the believers is of equal value (2Pt 1:1).

  Isn't it an unjust reward? According to the Watchtower Society, if after Adam's fall, converts would not only regain eternal life on earth, but could also go to heaven, then humanity would actually receive a higher reward through the fall, without deserving it, which would be unjust. Isn't that logical? However, let's take a look again at the scriptures referenced by the Society, and their claims about them:

  Genesis 2:16-17 The Society claims that the "death" due for Adam's fall "is not the gate of heaven, but the punishment for disobedience."

  This is indeed the case, and every Christian denomination views death as a punishment, as an enemy. The referenced section, however, says nothing about man's state after death.

  1 Timothy 2:6 In the Society's translation, it reads: Christ "gave himself a corresponding ransom for all" (NWT). The ransom is "corresponding" in their translation, that is, equivalent. Adam lost perfect human life, and the last Adam, Jesus Christ, regained it by sacrificing his own perfect human life, he regained it for believers.

  First of all, the original expression (antilytron = ransom) only appears here in the New Testament, and is just one of many similar expressions that describe the same redemption (Mt 20:28 lytron, Eph 1:14 apolytrosis, etc.). It cannot be claimed that a ransom - either in the Bible or in the world - is necessarily of equivalent value.

  Secondly, God, according to the Bible, wants to give more than a perfect human life, even if it seems "unfair" to the Society. According to Paul (Rom 5:12-21), Adam is indeed a prefiguration of Jesus at one point: as sin entered the world through Adam and spread to everyone, so too did justification enter the world through Jesus, and is given to every believer (see 5:18-19). However, he continues: "But it is not true that the sin is like the gift of grace (...) God's grace and gift poured out even more abundantly (...) where the sin increased, there the grace poured out even more abundantly" (5:15-16,20). For example, according to 2Pt 1:4, believers "have become partakers of the divine nature", and according to 1Jn 3:1-2, they will become like Christ, etc. The question is not whether this applies to all believers or just 144,000, but whether, if it applies to even a single person, how could Christ's life be of equivalent value to Adam's?

  Perhaps these few examples have shown how important it is to take into account the context of the text, the internal connections of a given section, and its original and true message before linking it to another. There is a big difference between searching the Bible for snippets that can be quoted to support our own theory, or letting the entire message of the Bible shape our own thinking.

  It's easy to find sentences in the Bible that we could say too, but nobody would be interested in that. But if they are in the Bible, they support our thoughts with divine authority - or so it may seem. I encourage you to always study carefully the scriptures that "support" other teachings of the Society, and always try to discover the internal connections of the text, the real intention of the speaker. You will be surprised many times, but it is worth it!
• 

  Sea Breeze

  @Boogerman

  Yes, because of the widespread belief among JW's that when you literally die, "you get a clean slate", I was very surprised to learn that as far back as 1985, the WT stated that the death being spoken of in Romans 6: 7 is symbolic and not literal.

  What an excellent article for JW's to read and consider! For example, p. 9 par. 6:
  "By his undeserved kindness, Jehovah accepted Jesus’ sacrifice in behalf of Adam’s descendants. It was an equivalent, or corresponding, sacrifice seeing that, as a perfect man, Jesus bought back what the perfect man Adam lost."
  

  Personally, I wouldn't go there. The way WT "explains" Jesus' Ransom sacrifice greatly diminishes the 1 to 1 relationship that Jesus has with the believer. Simply put - In Adam we inherit sin and death. In Jesus we inherit righteousness and unending life for our body, soul, and spirit.

  This is the exchange offered in the NT to "whosoever":

  2 Cor. 5: 21 - For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, [not only Adam] that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

  Just like how under the animal sacrifice system the animal was killed in place of the sinner, Jesus offers to bear ALL of our personal sins we have comitted and die in our place. Jesus offers to trade places with us.
  
  From Genesis where God killed animals and provided their skins for a covering to Adam & Eve, to the animal sacrifice system in the OT, to the NT sacrifice of Jesus who was killed in our place - this is the central theme of the bible - a blood covering for us - substitutional atonement for us (not Adam).

  So, how does a person get to be "in Jesus"? We must accept the official deal (covenant or contract) offered at Mt. 26: 27-28 "for the forgiveness of sins"

  2 Cor. 5:19 ...God was in Christ, ... not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
  
  The ministry of reconciliation is what JW's need to hear, not more WT claptrap. But first, they have to know that when they die, their sins ARE NOT WIPED OUT. Only then will the good news mean anything to them.
  
  
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  BoogerMan

  @ Sea Breeze - JW's annually reject the offer of the New Covenant, because they are told by the G.B. that they are a "type/antitype" for the foreigners in Exodus who were not participants of the Law Covenant.

  wt 98 2/1 p.19, par. 6 - "Further, other sheep lay hold of the new covenant just as foreigners of old laid hold of the Law covenant. In what way? Not by becoming participants in it but by submitting to the laws associated with it and benefiting from its arrangements."

  If only JW's would open their silver-sword and read Deuteronomy 29:10-15. (But the truth would hurt 😥)
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  blondie

  I have not read the other comments, but in searching the WOL, I found this in the Study Notes of Romans on 6:7: where the WTS also references Romans 6:23 (see also notes on John 5:29): has been acquitted: Or “has been released (pardoned).” Lit., “has been justified.” The Greek word di·kai·oʹo used here is often rendered “to declare righteous.” The context shows that Paul was discussing spirit-anointed Christians alive at that time. They had been baptized into Christ Jesus and had received the valid prospect of heavenly life. However, in order to be anointed with holy spirit and accepted as spirit-begotten sons of God, they had to die figuratively to their former course of life as imperfect humans and have their sins forgiven by God. Then they could have human perfection imputed to them. In discussing this with regard to anointed Christians, Paul was drawing on a fundamental truth. He knew that the penalty for Adam’s sin was death. (Ge 2:17) So Paul reasons that one who has died has been acquitted from sin because by means of his death, he has paid the full penalty for sin. At Ro 6:23, Paul says: “The wages sin pays is death.” So when a person has died, his sinful record no longer stands against him. And if it were not for Jesus’ sacrifice and God’s purpose to resurrect the person, he would never live again. Still, he would remain acquitted from sin, since God would not reexamine his case and then sentence him to further punishment. (updated 2023)