2nd Isaiah 49:6 (page 2)

peacefulpete

The 4 craftsman motif similarly conceptualized a slain "son of Joseph" messiah. 4Q175..seems to be consistent with this idea. I have to spend another day at the hospital (father) but intend to expand on these thoughts.

But I'll repeat that the objection most often declared is a nuanced differentiation.

To be sure, the near proverbial suffering prophet, Son of Man and Suffering Servant are merged into a singular concept most fully and explicitly in some strands of Christianity. But the more fundamental notion of a righteous teacher or agent of deliverance being persecuted and even killed was quite current in the times among Jewish thought. The Rabbinic usage of 2nd Isaiah this way doesn't require we believe they adopted a Christian interpretation, is demonstrates how the text inspired sympathetic comparisons.

peacefulpete

"Let us lie in wait for the righteous man,
because he is inconvenient to us and opposes our actions;
he reproaches us for sins against the law,
and accuses us of sins against our training.
[13] He professes to have knowledge of God,
and calls himself a child of the Lord.
[14] He became to us a reproof of our thoughts;
[15] the very sight of him is a burden to us,
because his manner of life is unlike that of others,
and his ways are strange.
[16] We are considered by him as something base,
and he avoids our ways as unclean;
he calls the last end of the righteous happy,
and boasts that God is his father.
[17] Let us see if his words are true,
and let us test what will happen at the end of his life;
[18] for if the righteous man is God's son, he will help him,
and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries.
[19] Let us test him with insult and torture,
that we may find out how gentle he is,
and make trial of his forbearance.
[20] Let us condemn him to a shameful death,
for, according to what he says, he will be protected."

Wisdom of Solomon 2.

Not exactly on topic but does at least demonstrate the acceptance of suffering and death of righteous, in contrast to the maxim that suffering was result of disfavor. The adoption of afterlife rewards and punishment contributed no doubt. In fact the spirit of martyrdom was rampant.

PioneerSchmioneer

The Wisdom of Solomon is a work found in the LXX, one of the books found in the Catholic canon.

The view that the texts from chapter 2 are "messianic" are a popular Catholic and Orthodox tradition that goes back to the Church Fathers but not further.

You can actually see this from looking up Wisdom 2:10-20 in practically any Catholic Bible since they are generally annotated with footnotes. You will usually find that this section is regarded as prophetic of Christ's passion, tied to Matthew 27:41-44 or one of the other accounts.

While the text is quite interesting, the author is merely stating that the wicked run around in groups of thugs, attacking people who faithfully observe the Mosaic Law and believe in God. It doesn't say anything about a messiah. It was written in 100 CE.

The book is not regarded as canonical by the Jews.

PioneerSchmioneer

The concept of "suffering comes from [divine] disfavor" that Peacefulpete is making reference to in his previous post in reference to the Wisdom of Solomon has to do with a Jewish belief that is found in the Biblical Prophets.

It was abandoned by the Jews after the Third Jewish Revolt. But since Scripture writing did not continue, Christians don't tend to acknowledge that Jewish theology isn't static.

While it wasn't fully developed yet in the Diaspora, after the Holocaust a formal theological revision of the view was finally settled, namely that suffering is not a sign of divine disfavor. It is one of the few universal dogmatic views found throughout Jewish religion today

peacefulpete

P.Schm.....Again sure, in context Wis of Sol is not messianic, but it certainly lent itself to that interpretation.

The debates about exactly how the Teacher of Righteousness of Qumran was perceived will probably continue. It's not surprising. It likely followed a path toward mythologizing common at the time. What we do know is that he was identified with the S.S. The "Self Glorification Hymn" has been tentatively identified with this T of R by a number of scholars. If this is correct then we have a complete example of a Jewish individualized interpretation of the S.S. followed by heavenly glorification similar to the Enochic tradition in which the human prophet is elevated to become the 'son of man'. Even if this text was a reference to a future Priestly Messiah, we have a collection of ideas that seem to predate (or contemporary) the Christian concept.

1. [ I am ]recko[ned with the angels, my dwelling is in] the holy

2. [council.] Wh[o has been accounted despicable like me? And who]

has been despised like m[e? And who]

3. has been shunned (rejected)[by men] like me? [And who] compares to [me in

enduring ]evil? [No teaching]

4. compares to my teaching. [For ]I sit [ in heaven]

5. Who is like me among the angels? [Who would cut me off when I

open my mouth? And] who

6. could measure [the flow] of my lips? Who[ can associate with me in

speech, and thus compare with my judgement? For I]

7. am the beloved of the King, a companion of the ho[ly ones, and no

one can accompany me. And to my glory]

8. no one can compare, for I [have my station with the angels, and my

glory with the sons of the King. Neither]

9. with gold will (I) cro[wn myself, nor with refined gold ]

10. [ ] Sing,[ O beloved ones

PioneerSchmioneer

If there really was such a view as a "suffering messiah" in Judaism, then why would Peter tell Jesus immediately after identifying him as the Messiah and the Son of God, that it was impossible for him to suffer?--Matthew 16:13-23.

It is not possible that such a view was known among Jesus' followers since on the walk to Emmaus Jesus says his disciples are foolish for not believing his earlier teachings that the Messiah was going to suffer before entering into glory based on what the Hebrew Scriptures taught-- not from other obscure texts to which no references are ever made.--Luke 24:25-27, 32.

Jesus later reiterated that his Messianic role was something far different than the Jews expected, including a salvific work that would save the Gentiles--including a work of proclaiming this news to them, and that this was what was the real message found in the Jewish Scriptures was all about. --Luke 24:44-49.

The Messianic role Jesus claimed for himself is supposed to be something unexpected, not something predicted. It was foreshadowed in the words of the Prophets, but not directly. No Jew could expect what Jesus was teaching, including an end to the literal monarchy of Israel.

Those who look for a "suffering messiah" in obscure texts also require literalism in texts due to personal beliefs. There are no literal texts that spell out any messianic doctrine, Jewish or Christian in the Hebrew Tanakh to begin with, making any secondary attempt with other texts problematic.

If these other texts are indeed about a suffering messiah, it would not matter. They did nothing to help Peter or the apostles of old, nor did Jesus claim anything about these in reference to himself as far as we know. The first followers of Jesus were shocked to see him arrested, tortured and die.

peacefulpete

P.S. As you said at some point earlier, Jewish religious thought was incredibly diverse. It would not be surprising if an idea arose independently among different groups, however a Christian relationship with the Qumran community has been widely conjectured.

Regardless of any pre Christian or parallel conceptulization, the idea would be counterintuitive for the larger Jewish community. The writers of the Gospels addressed the potential objection for these readers in multiple ways.

Such might be a consequence of the popularization of the mystery faith.

peacefulpete

nor did Jesus claim anything about these in reference to himself as far as we know.

The gospel writers did depict Jesus as explicitly identifying as the SS. E.g. Luke 22:37

For I tell you that this scripture must be fulfilled in me, namely, ‘He was counted among the wicked’; and indeed what is written about me is coming to fulfillment.”x

PioneerSchmioneer

Luke 22:37 is a quote of Isaiah 53:12, not of a non-canonical text:

"He hath delivered his soul unto death, and was reputed with the wicked."--Douay-Rheims Version.

"He poured out His life unto death, And was counted with wrongdoers. "--New American Standard.

"He poured out himself to death and was numbered with the transgressors."--NRSVue.

The Suffering Servant Oracles, again, are Israel, enslaved to Babylon, when the Jews once believed in a "suffering-sign-of-God's-displeasure" theology that no longer exists. These were applied to Jesus (and some tried to apply them to the failure of Bar Kokhba) via retrofitting to try to make sense of what happened to these two great figures of history since neither were supposed to fail in death.

peacefulpete

Luke 22:37 is a quote of Isaiah 53:12.

Yes, I thought that was what you had denied. My fault sorry, quite distracted at the time.

These were applied to Jesus... via retrofitting to try to make sense of what happened to these two great figures of history since neither were supposed to fail in death.

Or the story, including the passion narrative, is a composition woven from texts such as Isaiah servant, Zechariah 13 and other suffering themes from Ps 22, 38,69 just for example. The intertextuality never appears hidden, words of the OT are directly placed in Jesus' mouth, readers must have recognized this.

2nd Isaiah 49:6

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