On a recent jw.org video update Joel Dellinger makes thr case that the phrase " they keep saying to the mountains and to the rocks: “Fall over us" in Revelation 6:16 is a reference to symbolic mountain like organisation at the time of the End.What do you think?
Are the rocks and mountains in Revelation 6:16 symbolic?
by raymond frantz 9 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Vidqun
Raymond, I have a different take on the passage. I believe Babylon will be destroyed at the end of the Tribulation according to Revelation chronology. I am definitely closer to your method of exegesis. Here goes, for what it's worth:
What would be the reaction of the leaders of the nations? Would they rally in support of their people? No, cowardly national leaders and the rich and famous will be fleeing to their well-equipped underground cities and bunkers, leaving the masses to fend for themselves:
15 Then the kings of the earth, the very important people, the generals, the rich, the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves [Gr. εἰς τὰ σπήλαια. Lit. into the caves] and among the rocks [Gr. εἰς τὰς πέτρας. Lit. into the bedrock] of the mountains.
16 They said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the one who is seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb,
17 because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”[1] (Rev. 6:15-17 NET)
Most modern translations prefer “among the rocks.” As will be seen, because of John’s Semitic background, he was greatly influenced by the OT prophets.
εἰς,a preposition governing the accusative: central meaning with focus on entrance into, or direction and limit: into, to, toward, for, among .(Danker and Thayer).
εἰς, preposition with accusative, into, in; spatially, denoting motion toward a place, after verbs of going, sending, moving to, toward, into (Matt. 9:7). πέτρα, ας, ἡ literally, living rock, bedrock (Matt. 7:24), in contrast to πέτρος (isolated stone). Friberg.
World leaders and their following will not only hide among the rocks, they will be sheltering inside them. This is confirmed by the prophet Isaiah.
[1] God’s wrath is directed at all the inhabitants of the earth, especially the proud and the arrogant (Is. 2:10-12, 17, 19-22; cf. Luke 21:35 NET). The question: “Who is able to stand?” is answered in the intercalation of the next chapter (Rev. 7:9, 14).
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Vidqun
Moral of the story, which also applies to JWs:
The heading of Is. 2:6 reads as follows: The Day of the LORD (CSBO, ESV) and The Lord’s Day of Judgment (NET). This is not only a judgment of Judah, but a universal judgment of the proud and arrogant. They are advised: “Enter into the rock and hide yourself in the dust because of the dreadfulness of Jehovah, and from his splendid superiority” (Isa. 2:10). As we shall see, the Great Tribulation will be leading up to the Day of the LORD:
9 Men bow down to them in homage, they lie flat on the ground in worship. Don’t spare them!
10 Go up into the rocky cliffs, hide in the ground. Get away from the dreadful judgment of the LORD, from his royal splendour!
11 Proud men will be brought low, arrogant men will be humiliated; the LORD alone will be exalted in that day.
12 Indeed, the LORD who commands armies has planned a day of judgment, for all the high and mighty, for all who are proud– they will be humiliated;[1]
17 Proud men will be humiliated, arrogant men will be brought low; the LORD alone will be exalted in that day.
19 They will go into caves in the rocky cliffs and into holes[2]in the ground, trying to escape the dreadful judgment of the LORD and his royal splendour, when he rises up to terrify the earth.
20 At that time men will throw their silver and gold idols, which they made for themselves to worship, into the caves where rodents and bats live,
21 so they themselves can go into the crevices[3] of the rocky cliffs and the openings under the rocky overhangs, trying to escape the dreadful judgment of the LORD and his royal splendour, when he rises up to terrify the earth.[4]
(Is. 2:9-12, 17, 19-21 NET)
Above confirms Rev. 6:15-17:“And the kings of the earth and the top-ranking ones and the military commanders and the rich and the strong ones and every slave and [every] free person hid themselves in the caves and in the rock-masses of the mountains. And they keep saying to the mountains and to the rock-masses, Fall over us and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”
In its apocalyptic portrayal of judgment, Rev 6:15f. speaks of caves as a refuge and rocks as a (paradoxically mortally dangerous) covering before the annihilating countenance of the judgment of God and his Messiah. EDNT.
Therefore Isaiah (2:22 NET) gives a stern warning: “Stop trusting in human beings, whose life’s breath is in their nostrils. For why should they be given special consideration? ”This is in line with Jeremiah’s quote (17:5):“This is what Jehovah has said, Cursed is the able-bodied man who puts his trust in earthling man and actually makes flesh his arm, and whose heart turns away from Jehovah himself.” Yes, governments, kings, religious leaders, important people and the super rich cannot be trusted. They do not have the interests of the people at heart, but are focused only on their own interests. The psalmist reinforces the argument: “Do not put YOUR trust in nobles, Nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs. His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; In that day his thoughts do perish” (Ps. 146:3, 4). Or phrased differently: “Do not trust in princes, or in human beings, who cannot deliver!” (Ps. 146:3 NET).
[1] “For a day belonging to the LORD of Hosts is coming against all that is proud and lofty, against all that is lifted up- it will be humbled-” (CSBO).
[2]מְחִלָּה: This feminine noun occurs only once, in Is. 2:19, where it is parallel to caves in rocks. See TWOT.
[3]נֻקַּרְתֶּם: to be quarried out)rock(, parallel with חֻצַּבְתֶּםIs 511. Der. *נְקָרָה. Syr. nqārā; Arb. Nuqrat excavation: נִקְרַת, pl. cs. נִקְרוֹת: cleft withצוּרEx 3322 Is 221. See HALOT.
[4] Or “land.” However, most translators agree that this points to a universal judgment. Thus, they translate it as “earth” (cf. CSBO, ESV, NET, etc.).
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stan livedeath
[2]מְחִלָּה: This feminine noun occurs only once, in Is. 2:19, where it is parallel to caves in rocks. See TWOT.
i think you will find it's spelled TWAT
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Vidqun
Thinking of number one or two. I like no. 2.
Definition of twat
1slang, vulgar + offensive : a woman's sexual organs2British : a stupid or annoying person'… no, you're not sorry, you're just a twat.'— Mark Billingham -
FedUpJW
What do you think?
If one is to believe anything in the drug fueled hallucination known as Revelations it would be symbolic. Remember everything in Revelations is symbolic EXCEPT the magic number of 144,000 which is literal, according to WTB.&T$$
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raymond frantz
I'm with you on the underground bunkers and the way the Bible allows space for this interpretation.
Vidqun8 hours ago
Raymond, I have a different take on the passage. I believe Babylon will be destroyed at the end of the Tribulation according to Revelation chronology. I am definitely closer to your method of
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raymond frantz
FedUpJW19 minutes ago
What do you think?
If one is to believe anything in the drug fueled hallucination known as Revelations it would be symbolic. Remember everything in Revelations is symbolic EXCEPT the magic number of 144,000 which is literal, according to WTB.&T$$
Painting everything symbolic is the easy way out BUT the context always gives you an indication whether you Re dealing with literal or symbolic verses
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Kosonen
Could it not be as simple as bunkers? Were do people flee during bombardments?
"Then great hailstones, each about the weight of a talent, fell from heaven on the people, and the people blasphemed God because of the plague of hail, for the plague was unusually great." Revelation 16:21
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Vidiot
Shit, FedUpJW beat me to it.
