Mesianic Prophesies

by Tyler 26 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • JCanon
    JCanon
    Well, what can I say? My question still remains- Did jesus actually fulfill any prophesies about the messiah? Whether he will in the future is not the issue. In fact, how am I expected to put faith in someone who has not yet fullfilled any signs of his presance, but will in the (unknown) future?

    Interesting question. I'll focus on the first coming Jesus for fulfillments.

    Chronology: Chronologically he appeared at the right time. He was supposed to appear 69 weeks or 483 years after the 1st of Cyrus when the Jews began to rebuild Jerusalem. We know from ancient revised records that date was 455BCE (i.e. VAT4956). Thus the 15th of Tiberias fits that date in 29CE.

    He was supposed to be in the grave three days and three nights and that was fulfilled, though that was his own prophecy.

    He was supposed to be born in the line of King David, so that was fufilled.

    He was prophesied to be born in Bethlehem and that was fulfilled.

    He was prophesied to be named "Emanuel" and that was fulfilled (Emanuel was his middle name).

    But actually, since the apostles in the gospels apply so many fulfilled prophesies to him, even some casual references that he must fulfill; unless you believe the Bible in the first place it might be hard to go from there to believing Jesus.

    Are you saying that Jesus will be homosexual in his second coming? Please re word this as I'm sure you left out words in your haste that would have made your meaning clearer.

    No. You heard it right. The critical reference is the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus where Lazarus is first sickly and outside the gate of the Rich Man, his ulcers licked by dogs, who then ends up in the bosom position of the Father. This is the classic reference to the prodigal-son second coming Messiah who goes from the pits of death to the glory of being the Messiah. But a "dog" in the Bible is a reference to among other things, homosexuals. Thus the ulcers of Lazarus, which represent his spiritual sickness being licked by dogs, associates those ulcers with homosexuality. Thus though Lazarus loved knowledge he had a weakness that he left his faith for in order to pursue sexual desires.

    But as the Bible says, "there is more joy in heaven over one who repents than over the 99..." is a reference to why God chose this person, the prodigal son, to become the Messiah. This one had been lost to him first but now returning the joy of his return was the impetus for God's personal choice in chosing him to be close to him forever (in his "bosom position") and thus he was chosen to embody the Messiah at the second coming.

    Since it doesn't appear you're a believer, though, interesting enough, you have an advantage since you can't be biased.

    So I'll note more detail of the second coming. At the time of the second coming, when Satan as a dragon is kicked out of heaven, the Messiah returns to the flesh at the same time. Thus we find a "woman" in birth pangs about to give birth to a child and she does and he's the Messiah. He is "caught up to God" before the Devil can destroy him. This is simply symbolic of the fact that an ordinary man, one of Christ's followers and a member of this "woman"'s organization, which is a secret cult of Christ (i.e. God provided a secret place for her in the wilderness) becomes the Messiah. Her giving birth is symbolic of that individual having been a part of this secret Chrisian group.

    Note that the Devil cannot get to her, but disgorges a river after her to drown her. This is the modern propaganda of the Devil that might dissuade some, but not this woman since she relies upon the Bible as the ultimate truth and thus the earth, symbolic of solid Biblical knowledge and corrected secular facts, swallows up the propaganda. But note that Christ as Michael the Archangel was already up in heaven, right? So how is it the Messiah is just now born?

    Well, it's the same as the first time. Christ was already in heaven before become one with the flesh of mankind.

    Anyway, the past sins of the Messiah are most clearly noted in Zechariah 3 where he appears with befouled garments which are exchanged for clean ones. These befouled garments represent his gross sins that he now has left. Those sins are the sins of his homosexuality. Per the Bible.

    Of course, believing beyond the Bible will have to come through miracles, some of which are prophesied to occur (i.e. Armageddon).

    JCanon

  • hooberus
    hooberus
    Isaiah 53 can not refur to Jesus for the following reasons:

    Tyler, here are some of my comments on some of the points made (I may do others later).

    e) verse 9 "Nor was there deceit in his mouth." doesn't apply because Jesus lied to his family about going to Jerusalem . (John 7:8-10), and lied in saying that he never taught in secret (see John 18:20 , vs. Matt. 24:3 and others).

    John Chapter 7 8: Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast; for my time is not yet full come.
    9: When he had said these words unto them, he abode still in Galilee.
    10: But when his brethren were gone up, then went he also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret. Apparently the author of this argument is saying that Jesus lied because some Bible versions omit the first "yet" in verse 8. This forms a seeming contradiction with verse 10 in these versions. Translations such as the KJV do not have this contradiction. As far as manuscript evidence goes, the evidence strongly favors the word yet as being original. It is found in the oldest manuscripts containing these verses P66 (175-200 AD), P75 (200 AD), B (350AD), L, T, and W. It is omited in Siniaticus (350 AD) and D (450AD). This author accuses Jesus of lying here based on a poor argument indeed. John Chapter 18 20: Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.
    21: Why askest thou me? ask them which heard me, what I have said unto them: behold, they know what I said. Matthew Chapter 24 3: And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? This argument takes the word privately and attempts to make it "secret" . This is an out of context argument. I have had private Bible studies with firends where I taught, yet I would not say that I have "secret" study groups. Another false accusation against Jesus.

    f) contrary to verse 2, Jesus is never described as physically unattractive;

    When you look verses procceeding chapter 53 it becomes clear that Isaiah 53:2 is talking about Christs appearance during his passion (if you still believe that it referrs to his pre-passion appearance see my earlier linked arcticle). Isaiah Chapter 50 5: The Lord GOD hath opened mine ear, and I was not rebellious, neither turned away back.
    6: I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting. Isaiah Chapter 52 13: Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.
    14: As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men: Isaiah Chapter 53 2: For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
    3: He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
    4: Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. Matthew Chapter 27 30: And they spit upon him, and took the reed, and smote him on the head.

    g) far from being rejected and despised as verse 3 says, the Gospel writers describe him as being popular;

    Matthew Chapter 27

    22: Pilate saith unto them, What shall I do then with Jesus which is called Christ? They all say unto him, Let him be crucified.
    23: And the governor said, Why, what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying, Let him be crucified.

    h) contrary to verse 7, Jesus did a lot of talking; and
    Matthew Chapter 27

    12: And when he was accused of the chief priests and elders, he answered nothing.

    Mark Chapter 15

    3: And the chief priests accused him of many things: but he answered nothing.

    Also see my linked arcticle for more information.

  • hooberus
    hooberus
    i) instead of being non-violent (verse 9), Jesus overturned tables, chased people from their jobs, and promised to bring swords.

    As far as the first argument "overturned tables, chased people from their jobs" see linked arcticle. The last comment "promised to bring swords" is so out of context it does not deserve a refutation, but here is one. The sword is matthew 10:34 is symbolic of people being divided over Christ (to accept or reject).

    Matthew Chapter 10

    32: Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
    33: But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
    34: Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
    35: For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
    36: And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
    37: He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
    38: And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
    39: He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

    Matthew Chapter 26

    51: And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.
    52: Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    JC, Isaiah 53 was fulfilled by Jesus at his first coming, your comments are reprehensible.

  • hooberus
    hooberus
    a) Jesus was never sick. Some say that he was sick during the crucifixion, but physical trauma (e.g. execution) is not considered sickness in the normal sense of the word.

    What verse says that Jesus was "sick" ? The word used in the KJV is grief. The following discusses Isaiah 53 in general as applying to Jesus and not to Israel as well as the Hewbrew word in question.

    http://associate.com/ministry_files/Other_Electronic_Texts/Protestant/Isaiah.shtml

    I hope to post some comments on the remaining points that I have not yet covered.

  • Tyler
    Tyler

    What if I suggested that the chapter was refuring to the nation of Israel returning from exile in Babylon? It is all very poetic language relating the despised condition Israel apeared to the rest of the world, and is writen as a rousing cry to lift the spirits of despairing Jews. The fact that it resembles a description of Jesus' cruxafiction (Impalement?) is no more amazing than the fact that it resembles how I felt at school, how Tamus dies for his worshipers, or any number of Greek tragedies.

    By the way Hooberus, do you think Jesus will be gay in is second coming?

  • archangel01
    archangel01

    Jesus is the man! He fulfilled everything in the scripts, it's not hard to put it all together. You need to find an old bible because its closer to the meaning of things. Are english laug. doesn't have the right words sometimes to get the real meaning of things so that's why you have to reread it over an over and look up other scripts to get the whole scope of things and understand why they did what they did & said. That's my two cents!!!!!!!!

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    Tyler, Isaiah 53 does not fit the Nation of Israel see my last link for a strong refutation. Trying to make it refer to Israel is a desperate grasp in order to escape the obvious that it referrs to the Messiah. Much of the following comes from the above link

    • Singular personal pronouns ("He") are used throught the chapter.
    • If "He" refers to Israel, whom does "My people"(53:8) refer to ?
  • hooberus
    hooberus

    The last verses of Isaiah 52 (immediately before chpater 53) read:

    13: Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.
    14: As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:
    15: So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

    http://associate.com/ministry_files/Other_Electronic_Texts/Protestant/Isaiah.shtml

    "The suffering servant in Isaiah 53 does atone for the lives of many others. He bears their iniquities (Isaiah 53:11) and sprinkles His blood on many nations (Isaiah 52:15). These two words, bear (nasah) and sprinkle (yazeh) are the same Hebrew words found in Leviticus 16, the chapter on the atonement.

    The high priest was to sprinkle the blood of atonement on the alter (Leviticus 16:18). The person in Isaiah 53 provides atonement as a perfect sacrifice--fulfilling Leviticus 16---but He sprinkles all nations... not just Israel !"

  • hooberus
    hooberus
    a) Jesus was never sick. Some say that he was sick during the crucifixion, but physical trauma (e.g. execution) is not considered sickness in the normal sense of the word.

    The site you posted from says only this to back the above statement up:

    "Verses 3 and 4 speak of the servant's "grief" but the Hebrew word here is "choli" -- "sick"

    Here is a response to this specific argument ( I also found the two references in Jeremiah by a concordance).

    http://associate.com/ministry_files/Other_Electronic_Texts/Protestant/Isaiah.shtml

    Lets now look at the word "choli". Sometimes it does refer to physical disease but to the heaviness and grief resulting from man's separation for God. In Ecclesiastes 6:2 we read, A man to whom God hath given riches, wealth and honor, so that he wanteth nothing for his soul of all that he desireth, yet God giveth him not power to eat thereof, but a stranger eateth it: this is vanity, and it is an evil disease." The word for "evil disease" here is "choli"

    Other examples of where "choli" is used to express man's spiritual dilemma can be seen in Jeremiah 6:7 and 10:19 among others. According to Isaiah 53:3, Messiah knew about the sufferings of men. He acquainted with their sufferings physically, of course, but primarily spiritually. Isaiah is not trying to say that this person was a sick man when he says, "He was acquainted with grief." He was burdened with our burdens and felt and experienced our sufferings. This did not occur only during the Messiah's crucifixion, but all during His ministry. He wept over Jerusalem and over the sheep without a shepherd. He felt the full weight of mankind's spiritual dilemma. This is the real meaning of the phrase, "Surely he hath borne griefs inflicted by us, and suffered sorrows we have caused."

    b) Jesus had no children. Some say this refers to disciples or spiritual children, but the word "zera" is common in the Tanach and, when applied to people, always means linear descendants, not someone's disciples or followers.

    This one is a little more complicated, as it refers to the "seed" of Abraham by faith. The word does not have to refer to literal decendants.

    c) Jesus was not buried with the wicked. One cannot even say he died with the wicked since the Hebrew "rashaeem" is plural and, according to the crucifixion story, one of the thieves next to him ended up in heaven and so was not wicked.

    Everyone who has ever died and buried (with the exception of Jesus the messiah) was wicked (before God) because they were sinners.

    "For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not." Ecclesiastes 7:20

    "What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: . . . Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God." Romans 3:9-19

    "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" Romans 5:12

    "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23

    The theif on the cross was just as wicked at the other one. however he was saved not by his righteousness, but by faith in Jesus Christ.

    Romans Chapter 3

    20: Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
    21: But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
    22: Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
    23: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

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