by run dont walk 57 Replies latest jw friends
So is the 1000 year reign of Christ part of the seventh day? If so, almost 90 years of it is over. If not then we have 900 more years till the end of the system of things, right?
Reading and understanding that explanation from the WTS is like trying to make sense of a time travel movie.
I had always had questions and doubts about things like DFing, Birthdays, 144,000, and most of their understandings of prophecies, but being a good JW, I supressed them and waited on Jehovah. I was in full time service for more than 5 years. After I stopped, I had a hard time meeting the nat'l average. It was then that I realized that when I was struggling to get up on Saturday for service that I wasn't thinking about Jehovah, I was thinking about the elders noticing me not there (I was an MS for about 5 years and about to be appointed an elder.) At that point, I decided to step down and address all the questions I had supressed.
When all my worldly friends were always nice to me, and the Jw's always looked at me sideways, like "What's up with this guy?" I thought "Where's the love?" None was forthcoming. But my "worldly" friends always loved me unconditionally.
Integ.
Dear Oroborus,
I remember this demonic face very distinctly, and we were all JWs at the time. I don't think it was a subliminal message, just a face drawn into the picture that was subliminal (or hidden to the conscious mind until it was pointed out). I studied this picture afterward and it was quite detailed. I believe an artist definitely drew it in. It was not some sort of Man on the Moon or face on Mars trick of the mind. I am aware of the ability of the mind to create familiar shapes, faces, and images out of patterns it sees, but this was not that.
As for the dinosaurs, I remember studying this all of this a long time ago in the 60's. Here is what I remember. The creative days were 7000 years each. The heavens and the earth were created before the first creative day, so the earth had millions and billions of years to cool. Also light from Andromeda had time to actually reach the earth from 2 million light years away. Then the creative days started.
Day 1: (46,026 BCE to 39,026 BCE) Day and night came to be. God started the earth to spinning.
Day 2: (39,026 BCE to 32,026 BCE) Separation of the waters; creation of an atmosphere under a cloud canopy (like the planet Venus).
Day 3: (32,026 BCE to 25,026 BCE) Dry land rose up and the waters flowed down into ocean beds. Vegetation was created.
Day 4: (25,026 BCE to 18,026 BCE) The Society explained that the water canopy was lessened so that for the first time the heavens could be dimly seen and seasons determined. The Society explained that to Moses, the writer, with his limited understanding it would seem as though these luminaries were created on this day.
Day 5: (18,026 BCE to 11,026 BCE) Flying creatures and sea creatures were created. (The Society speculated that this was when dinosaurs were also created.)
Day 6: (11,026 BCE to 4026 BCE) Beast of the earth, followed by man at the end of the creative day. (Adam was created on or close to October 1st, 4026 BCE)
Day 7: (4026 BCE to 1975 AD) Almost 6000 years of rest to our present day, 1975 marks the end of this 6000 years.
This is what we studied. Was it the Let God Be True book? Who can remember that far back and help me fill in the gaps. I was very young back then.
Also, I was taught that you count down for the BCE years, because they didn't start the calendar yet. BCE is preferable to BC. Also, the year zero is not counted. The year started in the fall, for some reason, maybe because Adam was created in the fall, near October 1st.
When I asked about the dinosaurs, my mother even showed me a book in the KH library from the 40's with pictures of the dinosaurs. It even had a great year chart of all the creative days. We were told that dinosaurs were created by Jehovah during the fifth creative day and that they died out after their purpose was served (to eat the abundant vegetation from a previous creative day).
I guess 14,000 years without lawn-mowers is a problem that God had to take care of.
I hope this helps someone.
Tammy
this is a paraphrase from a post I made sometime last year about doubting:
There were always 3 nagging doubts that I had in the back of my mind: one was how come we as Witnesses commemorate the death of Christ if he specifically states "do this until I return", yet the WTS stated that he returned invisibly in 1914? (Im sorry I dont have any kind of bible handy to quote this scripture word for word, Im just going on memory) Of course I now know that the "official" position on 1914 has somewhat changed, but when I was a dub, it was all the rage, in addition to the whole "generation" teachings. Some witnesses in my congregation actually braced themselves for 1994, anticipating something. Nothing happened. Going back to my first doubt, I asked at least 2 elders and 3 MS in the congregation and got a total of 4 different responses and one very honest "I don't know" by an elder, which I thought was actually a great answer. As you all get to know me better, you will find out that I hate arrogance (WTS is full of that) and that I have a very low tolerance for bullshit (WTS has a lot of that too).Doubt #2 had to do with a female witness, middle-aged, who claimed to be of the Annointed class. I thought that the collection of the annointed was completed in 1935? This person was not even being thought of in 1935, so how did she know she was annointed? I got some lukewarm response from my mom about how some annointed lose their seats in heaven for acting incorrectly, sinning, etc. I thought that was stupid. Furthermore, I thought, and probably still think, that everyone, Witness or not, should go to heaven after he/she dies. IMO it's only fair. Some people's lives suck so bad in the here and now, why wouldn't there be an afterlife so they can a least enjoy themselves in the hereafter? Just my 2c on that.
Doubt #3 had a lot to do with the nature of God and the idea of a destruction/Armageddon/1000 year rule/whatever. As I mentioned before, my father and 95% of my relatives are not Witnesses. Why should they die? What did they do wrong? They wont subscribe to the Watchtower and Awake, so they are worthy of death? That did not make sense to me. What made less sense was the concept of the 1000 year period of resurrection and paradise-like conditions, where at the end of these 1000 years, we would all be judged again, and some scripture in Revelation states how "many would fall..like grains of sand" (again paraphrasing). Why? Isn't surviving Armageddon enough? If many are expected to fail that final test, then what's the point?
Above all things this was the thing that disturbed me the most, but it was something I also feared the most. I knew from a very very young age, probably 4 or 5 that I hated the "dingdum hall" as I called it then with all my might, but what if I was wrong and God inflicted all his rage against me? I had nightmares as a kid, where I would see God's face and I would see the anger and disgust in his face as I stood before him (he looked a lot like an elder that at that time I was really scared of).
I could look back now and add to those doubts mentioned above the phony love displayed by the ''sisters and brothers." I hated how these people would only take interest in me when the CO was around. I also questioned the validity of field service as a tool for measuring one's self-worth and spirituality. Why did I need to sell books and magazines in order for God to accept me?
I am sorry but the whole subliminal images thing is a non-issue that is so ridiculous and silly it isn't even funny but I don't fault you (much) for subscribing to what is a popular fallacy believed by many persons or agreeing with anything you have read in forums such as these on the Net--since even some otherwise rational anti-JWs have latched onto this pseudo-science as another support for their cause. However, i f you did some homework on "subliminal messages" and human psychology/behaviour, you would learn that they DON'T WORK, have NO EFFECT, and are generally purposeless. It is humourous to hear you describe the drawing as a "demonic face." I wonder was that your own conclusion? Sounds very JW-like to me. Maybe the face could be a "happy troll" instead? Or a "scowling ogre?" hah, hah, hah.... Anyway WHAT PURPOSE would a deliberate attempt at subliminal messaging be aimed at? Ask yourself that. All attempts at subliminal messaging (which don't work) always have (don't work) a purpose that the creator (don't work) of the message is attempting to achieve. (don't work) If the WTS wanted to pursuade ones to demonic purposes it would be far easier to just teach false doctrines (some here agree that they do) on the bare face of the magazine and from the platform. THEY DON'T NEED TO RESORT TO SOME OBSCURE DRAWING THAT 90% OF THEIR READERS WOULD NEVER SEE IN THE FIRST PLACE.
Eduardo, I think some of the so-called subliminal images are just lines that look like patterns, but I do believe some of them are deliberate.
You ask why the WTS would do this. I don't think it was done by the Society per se, but by some of the Bethel artists working on their own. Just some goof-ball juvenile humor <s>.
Remember, there is a history of this in the field of illustrations and cartoons. Many of the old cartoon illustrators have said they did this as a prank. Back before the days of VCR's and DVD's and "slow-mo" and "pause," they could get away with it.
The reason I am convinced that some of it is deliberate is because of the illustration in the Nov. 1, 1989 WT, p. 10.
The article is about moral cleanness, and the illustration shows a movie marquis in the background. It's a duplex, and the names of both movies are shown, one under the other.
In theater 1, we have "JEST TUPS", rated R.
In theater 2, there is "THRU DAILY" also rated R.
What kind of movie titles are those?! "Jest Tups" and "Thru Daily"? Something isn't right.
Reverse the letters in TUPS. Now what do we have?
JEST SPUT THRU DAILY.
Adjust the spacing.
JESTS PUT THRU DAILY
Don't you agree that this has to be deliberate, Eduardo?
It sure looks to me as if the artist himself is bragging about putting jests thru (maybe not daily, tho <s>). In light of that, I do believe some of the hidden pics are really there. The face in the angel's hand in the Rev. Climax book is obvious as is the face in the dress that Swan mentioned.
Marjorie
It was a bunch of little factors that did it for me, from when I first joined the truth [a blurry range between 4 and 9] all the way til 14 when I stopped believing in the WTS and the biblical god.
+ Jehovah never answered my prayers [and I mean serious prayers, like for my mum to not be so sad all the time]
+ I felt the Bible was sexist
+ I was upset by how animals were viewed, especially after I found out MY dogs probably weren't going to be in the NS
+ The thought that living forever would get boring after some time without any negative emotions
+ The part in the bible where the guy got killed for gathering wood on the sabbath [and plenty of other violent, unjust stories]
+ My lack of happiness with the truth
+ That weird little book they came out with arguing against evolution
+ That everyone else was wrong and they were always right
+ That my only friends were "worldly" and the JW kids didn't really like me
+ Plenty of other little quirks
I started discovering, in little bits and pieces, how they whitewash their history. I was especially shocked when I found the infamous 1975 quote in the May 1974 KM. Also, I remember a publication (can't remember which one) referring to Rutherford's address to the crowd at Ohio Stadium being titled 'Millions Now Living May Never Die'. I thought to myself, wait a minute, I don't think "may" was the word he used. Also, the way they used 'single quotes' instead of "double quotes" when referring to this - very sly.
This was just one of many issues, the whole thing just started to stink for me.
JESTS PUT THRU DAILY Don't you agree that this has to be deliberate, Eduardo?You have got to be joking!
Blondie,
you are correct. And I was born in 1970 I guess what I should have (or meant to) convey was that this was not a PRESENT teaching of the Society. I didn't want any new persons or persons unfamiliar with JW (current) doctrine to be mislead that the Society had that teaching (today) that the creative days were literal 1000 year periods. Mainly this is because there are some fundamentalists and creationists out there that do subscribe to this teaching.
Swan and Marjorie,
I allow for the POSSIBILITY that an individual artist can deliberately insert drawings or "messages" in their work and that this may be the case with the particular drawings you are pointing to. (I briefly drew a cartoon in college for the campus newspaper and even did some of this myself.)
My point however is still valid which is that such UNAUTHORIZED behaviour is and was never some sort of deliberate attempt at manipulation by the SOCIETY the way that some anti-JWs have suggested. (Not to mention again that all indications are that such subliminal messaging attempts are ineffective anyway.)
-Eduardo
