Jehovah or Jesus: Who Is To Come?

by Cold Steel 13 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel

    One thing I've never understood about JW eschatology is how it views Armageddon and the end times. The leaders and writers have evolved in their understanding of what's supposed to happen in the timeline. Below are Bible scriptures relating to biblical Armageddon. As most scholars read them, they don't point to a global destruction at all, but to a war between good and evil based in the Middle East. For example, all the prophets have agreed on various points.

    • Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. (Zechariah 12:2-3)
    • After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them. Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee. Thus saith the Lord God; It shall also come to pass...thou shalt think an evil thought: And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates, to take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land. (Ezekiel 38:8-12)
    • And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes. (Ezekiel38:16)
    • In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them. And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. (Zechariah 12:8-9)
    • And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord God, that my fury shall come up in my face. For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel ... [and] every man's sword shall be against his brother. And I will plead against [Gog] with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone. (Zechariah 12:19-22)
    • Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured. Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord God. (Ezekiel 39:4-5)
    • For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. (Zechariah 14:12)

    It's clear that these two prophets are speaking of the same event. Both are in the latter days, both concern massive military operations against Judah and Jerusalem, and in both cases the Lord comes out of his hiding place to destroy Judah's enemies and saves them. So why did the Lord let Judah fall to the Romans? Why did he let them be dispersed throughout the nations? Why did he let them suffer at the hands of the Spanish Inquisition, the Italians, Nazis and other nations?

    The Lord explained it to Ezekiel:

    ...the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword. According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them. Therefore...now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name; after they have borne their shame and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid. (Ezekiel 39:23-26)
    This is the battle of Armageddon. I'm not sure how the WTBTS came to its present understanding of this great event, but I've never spoken to even one JW who has studied what Armageddon is supposed to be from a biblical standpoint, or where it's supposed to be and how it's supposed to end. They know what the Watchtower says, but nothing about what the Bible states.

    But what is even more confusing to me is: who is it who is supposed to come during the battle? The sectarians call it "the Second Coming" (and by this is meant the Christ), but Zechariah says that it's Jehovah. Zechariah also writes:

    And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. (Zechariah 12:9-12)
    Although the text says "they shall look upon ME whom they have pierced," the text says "they have looked unto Me whom they pierced." Either way, the one who comes is Christ. This is especially significant to those who believe that Jesus and Jehovah are the same.

    But who is it that the JWs believe is coming?



  • EndofMysteries
    EndofMysteries
    There are scriptures that make Jehovah or the one who was dealing with Israel as a son or not the almighty.
  • Mephis
    Mephis

    The problem with apocalyptic prophecies is that you can make them fit just about anything you please.

    The simple JW resolution to your argument (and I'm not saying this is or isn't or indicating agreement in any direction) would be "Well even if it says Jehovah, it just means he's behind it. Let me find another verse from Revelation to show you that you have to read the bible as a whole inerrant and literal book, apart from the bits which we've decided aren't."

    My understanding of JW belief, certainly so when I was in, was that it was Jesus doing the Armageddon thing. He's the one leading the cavalry charge at the end of My Book of Bible Stories. ;)

  • Enlightenment123
    Enlightenment123

    There's also Zech. 14:5... And you shall flee to the valley of my mountains, for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal. And you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.

    Matt. 25:31... “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.

    1 Thess. 3:13... So that he may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his holy ones.

    To me, the logical answer is that Jesus is YHWH, the Son. Not the Father, but the Son of God. There are dozens of passages in the Old Testament, the LORD speaking, but it's very obviously Jesus. That's the belief in the Trinity. There is one God, YHWH, but God consists of three persons, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Since it is one 'being, nature, essence' of God, YHWH is the one name used by God, whether it's the Father speaking, or it's Jesus.

    In my experience in the years that I've been witnessing to Witnesses, they do everything possible to ignore these types of verses and deflect to something else. It causes too much conflict in their heads because they adamantly refuse to even consider that Jesus might be God. They would prefer to ignore the Bible so that they can continue to live with the beliefs they already hold as true, whether they are or not. They will tell you Jesus is the one coming, but it is 'Jehovah's Day' and don't address these other verses that say the LORD God is coming.

    To really look at JW eschatology... well, it's hard to even know where to begin because it is so far removed from what the Bible actually teaches. I truly feel sorry for them, as a Christian, because they wouldn't have a clue what is even happening.

  • Mephis
    Mephis
    To be fair, the reverse holds true that Trinitarians won't seriously consider the idea that Jesus wasn't God. It's one of those where a non-believer like me wants to call time out and point out that everyone's right because the NT has books in it which seem to express both ideas. And then both sides get annoyed with me instead for not seeing how the NT is like a cryptic crossword for believers to see nuanced meanings, so I'll settle for just stocking up on popcorn instead. Proverbs had it right. :D
  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel

    It's not so much a trinitarian thing as an alternate understanding. After the fall of man, the Father, El Elyon, could no longer deal with man in his sinful condition. He chose his Son, Yahweh, in the beginning, to be the mediator between God (meaning the Father) and Adam (Man). Yahweh was the Son, the Messiah, Redeemer, the stone and God of Israel, Jehovah. He was the God of Abraham and Isaac, the one who called and spoke to Moses, who led the children of Israel from Egypt into the land of Canaan. Then, in the meridian of time, he was born into mortality and raised as Jesus, suffering and dying for mankind. At the end of the Millennium, he will present the Earth, sanctified and redeemed, back into the hand of the Father. It doesn't require the Father and the Son to be the same entity. They are ONE in the same sense that the apostles were to be ONE.

    If one reads the NT, frequently the writers make a distinction between God and Jesus. They can indeed make a case that Jesus is not part of God. Even so, the apostle John seems to close the gap on that, especially in Revelation. In his writings, Jesus sits down with the Father on His throne, as we sit down with Jesus on His throne (which is the Father's throne). Thus, we become like Jesus and Jesus becomes like the Father and we, Jesus and the Father all become ONE. Since Yahweh is called God in the scriptures, and is later identified as Christ, we can conclude that Jesus (Yahweh) is a different being associated with God.

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel
    There's also Zech. 14:5... And you shall flee to the valley of my mountains, for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal. And you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.

    Yes, when Jesus sets his foot on the Mount of Olives, it shall split in twain. Sometimes we see it's Jehovah who's returning; other times it's Jehovah (as you state). Most biblical scholars believe it's Jesus who fulfills this, as when Jesus ascends from the Mount of Olives, the angel appears and tells the apostles he will return in like manner. By believing that Jehovah and the Father are the same, JWs create an awful knot they can't unravel. If they believe otherwise, they've just shot down the claims of the GB. Not a happy choice.


  • Mephis
    Mephis
    Even so, the apostle John seems to close the gap on that, especially in Revelation.

    Yeah, but even within Christianity, certainly within the Anglican communion, there's a lot of questions over some of the assumptions present in just that short sentence. I doubt it would even occur to you to question them. That's fundamentally going to be the gulf between your interpretation of scripture and JWs' too. It would be the same sort of response as if you tried to explain Yahweh being Jesus to a Gnostic. They'd think you were slightly dotty and terribly deluded. And vice versa. :) How it goes, isn't it?

  • GodZoo
    GodZoo

    I thought that a hundred threads before this one firmly established that 'Jehovah' is a completely made up name. Yet people simply choose to forget or ignore this fact and carry on like it simply does not matter.

    In that case this entire thread (which is keen to quote scholars for this and that while at the same time completely ignoring scholars on this fabricated name 'Jehovah') no longer matters either as it's plain that we are dealing with people who have no form grip on reality what so ever.

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel
    GodZoo >> I thought that a hundred threads before this one firmly established that 'Jehovah' is a completely made up name. Yet people simply choose to forget or ignore this fact and carry on like it simply does not matter.
    It actually doesn't matter because it's a translation. The original word was some iteration of the Tetragrammaton Yahweh, the Latinization being "Jehovah." What's important isn't the name itself but the identity. In this case it's the God of Israel being discussed -- the God of Abraham and Isaac. If we view the members of the Godhead in their proper context, we need not worry about whether we spell their names right.


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