The King vs. J. J. Ross

by vienne 16 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • vienne

    Buy the book I noted above. It contains what remains of the Ross transcript. Easy for you to do, and it's inexpensive. You can also find extracts from the transcript at

    As far as Ross's ethics go, see footnote 236, pages 49-50 of Separate Identity, volume one: "Ross claimed at various times to have graduated from Woodstock College and McMaster University. While he attended both, he graduated from neither. An anonymous pamphlet published by members of the Vancouver Baptist Ministerial Association exposed Ross. (Statement of Facts Relative to J. J. Ross, D.D., Vancouver, B. C., 1926) See: John Byron Richards: Baptists in British Columbia: A Struggle to Maintain “Sectarianism,” Master’s Thesis, University of British Columbia, 1964, page 147."

  • EasyPrompt

    That's okay, I don't need to buy a book to know Russell's a liar. (He made that abundantly clear regardless of Ross or anyone else.) Truth is free. The truth is that Russell's a snake, and what he sold is snake oil. (One thing I did learn from Russell is that people who want to make money selling "truth" are not to be trusted.)

    Matthew 23:33

    "Serpents, offspring of vipers, how will you flee from the judgment of Ge·henʹna?"

    Psalm 140:3

    "They sharpen their tongue like that of a serpent;

    Venom of vipers is behind their lips."

    Russell was a businessman. He saw the opportunity to profit off of the Bible, so he cashed in on his clothing business to invest in religion sales. He mixed truth with falsehoods. It's the same thing the WTBT$ does today, and all those who at their headquarters who represent them. It doesn't matter if they wear fancy clothes or fake screennames. Jesus can see through both.

    John 8:44

    "You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie."

  • vienne

    "people who want to make money selling "truth" are not to be trusted."

    So all the Church run and church affiliated Bible Book Stores are run by charlatans?

    The Watch Tower lost money. This was demonstrated with the Brooklyn Eagle case. Again. Read the transcript.

    Russell? Fruitcake. But dishonest? Not in the way you suggest.

  • EasyPrompt
    "So all the Church run and church affiliated Bible Book Stores are run by charlatans?"

    You yourself are saying it.

    Russell was dishonest in the same way the WTBT$ is dishonest. They are cut of the same cloth. Taking advantage of religiously inclined people. Frauds and charlatans trying to make money by selling something Jesus said should be free. Setting themselves up over the people like some kind of kings, lording it over others and making up oppressive rules. Jesus is exposing the whole lot of them, and they will be put out of business.

    John 2:14-17

    "He found in the temple those selling cattle and sheep and doves, and the money brokers in their seats. So after making a whip of ropes, he drove all those with the sheep and cattle out of the temple, and he poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. And he said to those selling the doves: “Take these things away from here! Stop making the house of my Father a house of commerce!” His disciples recalled that it is written: “The zeal for your house will consume me.”"

  • Gorb

    Was Ross not the host?


  • vienne

    John Jacob Ross was a Canadian Baptist clergyman. Though he claimed degrees he did not earn, he was educated enough to produce several doctrinal booklets. He was born in 1870 and died in 1935. Russell filed a criminal libel complaint against him which went to trial in 1913. After the trial Ross published Some Facts and More Facts About the Self-styled Pastor Charles T. Russell. In it Ross quotes from the transcript, omitting a key word to so as to have Russell claim to know Biblical Greek. In fact, all Russell said is that he could recognize some of the Greek alphabet.

    There is a long story here. The book I mentioned in my first post tells some of it. Schulz and de Vienne [my mother] told some of it in both volumes of Separate Identity. Ross's booklet is still quoted by polemicists without fact checking. This makes them look rather stupid, and it makes them complicit in a falsehood. The only writer that I know of who revised their work to present an accurate quotation is Walter Martin in the revised edition of Jehovah of the Watchtower. Martin's books have other flaws and his beliefs were outside evangelical Christianity, but he was an honest scholar if not always a careful scholar.

  • EasyPrompt

    Ah, yes, fact checking is always a good idea. Russell had a lot to say about many topics. How accurate and reliable was he in the "facts" he published?

    "without fact checking. This makes them look rather stupid, and it makes them complicit in a falsehood."

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