Grandparents take disfellowshipped daughter to court to insist on right to preach to four year old

by usualusername1 15 Replies latest jw friends

  • usualusername1
    usualusername1

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/jehovah-s-witness-grandparents-ordered-to-keep-faith-to-themselves-1.3282193

    A pair of devout Jehovah's Witnesses have been ordered by a B.C. provincial court judge not to talk about religion in front of their four-year-old granddaughter.

    The couple lost their bid for unsupervised access to the girl because they insisted on taking her to worship at their faith's Kingdom Hall despite the repeated objections of the child's mother.

    The girl is identified only as A.W. and the grandparents as A.R. and B.R. in Judge Edna Ritchie's 12-page decision. And for now, they're on a short leash.

    "There are many people with strongly held religious views that do not discuss those views in front of others, and specifically not in front of children," Ritchie wrote.

    Unless A.R. and B.R. can satisfy the court that they can comply with the mother's wishes, Ritchie said, "their time with A.W. must be supervised and limited."

    Religious rights vs. parental responsibility

    The case pits the Family Law Act against the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

    The Family Law Act states that only a guardian has parental responsibilities, including decisions about religious upbringing, and the mother, M.W., is sole guardian.

    But A.R. and B.R. argued that forbidding them from expressing their faith to their grandchild would violate a charter right to practise their religion.

    The Supreme Court of Canada ruled a custodial parent can't limit another parent's ability to discuss religion unless the child's best interests are threatened

    The grandparents want A.W. to experience their religion, while M.W. insists her daughter "can decide when she is older whether or not to participate in any religious practices."

    The battle is the culmination of a saga that began when the child's biological dad, L.R., told his parents he had fathered a child three weeks after A.W. was born.

    L.R. was "disfellowshipped" from the Jehovah's Witness faith, a type of religious excommunication. He testified that he has little contact with A.R. and B.R. He also pays no child support and has no parental responsibilities.

    A.R. and B.R. were determined to have contact with their granddaughter, and the child's mother felt it important for them to be part of their lives. She previously allowed them unsupervised access.

    Poppa and Momma vs. Grandpa and Grandma

    But according to the decision, the relationship between the "well-meaning, determined grandmother" and M.W. has been strained from the outset.

    M.W. also objected to the couple insisting the girl call them Poppa and Momma instead of Grandpa and Grandma. But by far the biggest disagreement arose over visits to the Kingdom Hall.

    From the time A.W. was a baby, A.R. and B.R. took her to services; M.W. said she wasn't happy, but didn't object until December 2013.

    She switched the timing of their visits, but then learned from her daughter the grandparents had taken A.W. to services the following spring; A.R. insisted the child "had begged to go to Kingdom Hall."

    Visits were then limited to supervised access at M.W.'s home.

    But even at that, M.W. was upset to find her daughter watching a Jehovah's Witness video on A.R.'s laptop. The grandmother insisted the child had pushed the play icon before she could stop her.

    Mother knows best

    The judge noted that when two or more parents with different religious views share parental responsibility the court will often support the child being exposed to each religion involved.

    But because A.R. and B.R. are not guardians, the court was bound to respect the decision of the mother. For that same reason, Ritchie also found the charter argument didn't apply.

    The couple cited another Supreme Court of Canada case involving a divorce in which a mother with custody had obtained an order forcing her Jehovah Witness ex-husband not to discuss religion with their children.

    In that case, the top court ruled a custodial parent does not have a right to limit the other parent's ability to discuss religion unless the child's best interests were threatened.

    In this case, Ritchie found it wasn't fair to place A.W. in a holy war between her mother and grandparents.

    "I am concerned that the applicants' demonstrated inability to respect and comply with M.W's decisions on religion will continue to cause conflict," she wrote. "It is not in A.W.'s best interests to be exposed to that conflict."

    Read the ruling

  • truthseeker100
    truthseeker100

    I am glad this was decided this way and it seems to me it would have naive for the Grandparents to expect things to turn out differently. I have personal experience in this area with me forbidding my parents from discussing religion with my children when they used to come and visit when I was at work. I made it very clear that if my wishes were not followed the visits would end.

    My wife and her family who are not Witnesses thought I was being a bit harsh, but they didn't understand the cult intricacies the way I did. So instead of trying to recruit my children they concentrated on my wife for a while but without any success.

    Someone at the Kingdom Hall must have advised them not to pursue Witnessing to my children and because they did not discuss religion with them they had an almost normal Grandparent Grandchild relationship with them for a while.

  • BluesBrother
    BluesBrother

    As I read the Watchtowers on this , I believe that if they had followed the WTS guidance on parental headship, they would not have pursued the matter :

    g04 7/8 p27

    Subjection to leadership is necessary for an orderly, stable society. Likewise, subjection to a family head is essential to building a solid, happy, peaceful family. The lack of a husband or a father in the family does not change this fact. In such families the mother assumes headship
    So in the next quote, for husband, read mother
    Wt 02 8/15 p30
    However, the unbelieving husband might insist that his children practice his religion, taking them to his place of worship and giving them religious education according to his faith. Or a husband may be opposed to all religion and insist that his children receive no religious education. As the head of the family, he is the one primarily responsible for making the decision.

    So they talk about goodness of God and creation but no doctrinal stuff.according to the mags.....
  • flipper
    flipper

    A HUGE problem within the Jehovah's Witness organization is a rabid lack of respect for non-Witnesses personal boundaries. Any mother or father who is raising a child has the right to decide what that child learns. This story in the opening thread could be repeated thousands of times even as JW's go knocking on doors of people they are trying to convert. It's really even disrespectful to make return visits on ANY minor children when you think about it without authorization from their parents.

    I remember years ago when I used to be a JW getting negative feedback from parents of teenagers I used to place literature with ; and the parents would tell their teenagers I couldn't call on them anymore or the parent would come to the door saying to " stop calling on my child, we're not interested. " And THAT is as it should be. JW's do NOT have the right to force their religious beliefs on anyone ; much less a minor child. JW's do NOT honor personal boundaries. For most JW's there ARE no boundaries

  • OneEyedJoe
    OneEyedJoe
    JW's do NOT honor personal boundaries. For most JW's there ARE no boundaries.

    In talking to a few people on the forums, it seems like this is the most pervasive problem faced by those who leave. Just getting in the mindset to realize you have a right to establish boundaries with people takes a long while after leaving this cult. It seems like that may have been the case in this story too, as it took the mother a while to confront her parents who were trying to recruit their grandchild.

  • OrphanCrow
    OrphanCrow

    Usualusername, the title to your thread is misleading.

    It seems like that may have been the case in this story too, as it took the mother a while to confront her parents who were trying to recruit their grandchild.

    The woman who fought these JWs in court was not 1.) their daughter and 2.) was never disfellowshipped. She had never been a JW and her daughter was the JWs' grandchild through their disfellowshipped son, who the JW grandparents shunned.

    The mother of the child had allowed access to her child by the grandparents simply because it was what she felt was important to the child. She certainly did understand boundaries - that is why this matter ended up in court.

    It is not fair to pigeonhole and blame the mother when the blame rests squarely on the grandparents for not respecting the mother or the child's boundaries. The mother and the child were victimized by the JW grandparents and the mother was not to blame.

  • Frazzled UBM
    Frazzled UBM
    A good decision but still unfortunate that the court's treat the JW religion as just another religion rather than abusive indoctrination that is harmful to children. The mother obviously learnt this over time and realised the improtance of protecting her child from it. I hope in future that courts can see through the freedom of religion dogma and recognise that some so called religions are harmful to children and that children need protection from the indoctrination they practice.
  • steve2
    steve2

    This seems to be a case in which the grandchild had spent unspecified but seemingly long and ongoing periods of time with her grandparents and was "free" to accompany them to the kingdom hall - and at that time, the child's mother, a disfellowshipped Witness, did not object.

    Then in December 2013 it changed. The child's mother objected to her daughter accompanying the grandparents to the kingdom hall or being exposed to any JW preaching/literature. The tussle began - and the bickering and counter-bickering got awfully acrimonious. I do wonder why the mother, the custodial caregiver, didn't simply forbid visits until her objections were respected. Perhaps there were "benefits" from having the child periodically in the grandparents care - Mom gets a break?

    So far, so clear.

    Then the child's grandparent's took the matter to court. How very bizarre! I have never heard of grandparents doing this before. I presume they must have lots of money to be able to afford the costs involved in civil/family court action.

    Of interest, none of the parties are suggesting the other is neglectful or unfit to care for the child.

  • OrphanCrow
    OrphanCrow
    steve2: ...the child's mother, a disfellowshipped Witness,..

    Please, somebody pleeeassse, help me out here.

    Where are you getting the idea that the mother was a "disfellowshipped Witness"??

    I must have missed that salient point and I have read the article and the judgement several times.

    Please point out to me where I have missed that detail.

  • talesin
    talesin

    OY - the father was a JW and told his parents about the child 3 weeks after the birth. Then, HE was disfellowshipped.

    Mother NOT a JW, nor is she married to the biological father (check the initals!) but let grandparents have visitation until .................

    Reading comprehension ...... ack.

    It sounds like the grandparents are trying to 'replace' their son, lost to Satan (hahaha) with their grandchild (not hahaha, but manipulative and disgusts me.)

    The battle is the culmination of a saga that began when the child's biological dad, L.R., told his parents he had fathered a child three weeks after A.W. was born.
    L.R. was "disfellowshipped" from the Jehovah's Witness faith, a type of religious excommunication. He testified that he has little contact with A.R. and B.R. He also pays no child support and has no parental responsibilities.
    A.R. and B.R. were determined to have contact with their granddaughter, and the child's mother felt it important for them to be part of their lives. She previously allowed them unsupervised access.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit