God of the Old Testament

by unsure 48 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Saved_JW

  Ok I guess Ill step up and honestly answer the question

  "To those on these forums who are Christian AND OR to those who believe in the God of the Old Testament; how does one overcome many of the questionable actions God took or allowed to happen in the Old Testament?"
  

  At its core, this is a moral objection to the actions of God.

  I understand the heart of your question, but before I answer, It might help to understand the doctrine of God.

  1- God is the only eternal uncreated being in the universe

  2- Ergo, God is the only one who has a divine right to dictate law [be that moral or otherwise]

  3- Therefore, our understanding of God is that he has absolute right to determine what OUGHT to be in the realms of ethics. What God says/does is good

  What are the implications of this? It means that God does not conform to an external standard of righteousness [good] God is the very definition of Good. The only way we [as people] can measure right and wrong is by an absolute measuring rod, which is God.

  Your question assumes that there is a standard of right and wrong found outside of God, and using that standard [whatever it is] you have judged God as not conforming to that standard, which is why you ask the question: how does one overcome many of the questionable actions God took or allowed to happen in the Old Testament?"

  I don't have to overcome anything. My mind is finite and limited in perspective, I do not know the complete circumstances surrounding any given judgment by God, but does it really matter anyways?

  What right do I have to breathe if God is the one who created me in the first place? What right do we have to anything since everything we have and are is owed to God in the first place? Instead we see that God is merciful by giving us life...he is also perfectly Just in the execution of his judgments [of which he is the standard]

  As for the question of Jesus being different then the God of the OT, this can easily be reconciled: Jesus came to bear witness of the Truth [Jn 18:37] To set the captives free [Luke 4:18] He came as a ministry of reconciliation [2 Cor 5:11] Jesus was prophesied to come on a donkey [in peace]...However this does not mean Jesus will not execute Justice. I appeal to the Book of Revelation for this one.
  
  Jesus second coming is a judgment against the wicked [Matt 13:41;2 Peter 2:9; Rev 19:11-16]

  This is what it all boils down to. If there is a moral objection against God, what moral LAW are you appealing to in order to make that judgement?
  
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  unsure

  @Saved_JW

  Appreciate the effort but all the points you are making are exactly the same as I've encountered​ before on Christian websites. They are apologist arguments.
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  unsure

  I sometimes do think that yes, my human understanding is limited and God has a higher purpose I can't comprehend, but God should not hold it against people if they get angry at, or do not believe in him/her.

  We should not be forced to worship or beleive in God if our personal logic and critical thinking skills do not allow for it.

  And yes, taking away the possibility of living forever if we do not beleive/worship a God is forcing worship.
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  David_Jay

  unsure,

  I understand a bit of where you are coming from. After all I was a Jehovah's Witness for a while in my youth.

  But it is clear from how you speak that like most, you still have a view of the Bible and Isaiah and other texts of Scripture that is colored not by Jewish theology but by Christianity. Most Christians won't believe a Jew when they tell them there is another way to look at things, and you can't convince them that the way they are reading Scripture is not the way it was ever intended by the people and culture that wrote it.

  So they see God as someone who will "hold it against people if they get angry at, or do not believe in" God. Jews do things in the complete opposite way.

  Jews understand God and someone who invites arguments, expects us to get angry, and doesn't really care if we "believe" in God. God's love isn't measured by the Christian verse that reads: "God is love." And Jews teach that God does not want people to be forced to worship or believe in God. God will not punish anyone for not believing in God. The God of the "Old Testament" that you are describing is a figment of a Gentile imagination. But if it's what you want to believe, oh well.

  Just one last thing to make you think: Christians see God sort of as a puppet-master, pulling strings and controlling everyone and everything. They pray to God to ask God for things, kind of like a child asks Santa Claus for toys.

  Jews see God as a partner in life. God won't pull any strings unless we give God permission. And though we might on occasion ask God for things, we regularly use prayer to bless God and sanctify our actions so that we can work with God to try to bring healing into the world. You are right, there is suffering. But you don't have to believe in God to devote your life to stopping it wherever it may be.
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  Cold Steel

  David_Jay » God is not merely intelligence either. Our God is far greater than just that. Since Abraham was the one who among his contemporaries who embraced this fact, God chose his descendents to carry on this understanding. This concept is what Jewish theology calls "monotheism": no God but one, no god but God.

  Okay...but in all the books of Moses and in all the books of the prophets, the word "GOD" is used. If you believe the Jews borrowed the god language from their Mesopotamian neighbors, that may be true, but how do you -- David Jay -- know that this is how Abraham and Moses comprehended Him? Abraham and Lot both knew many of the heathen and Moses was raised an Egyptian. Moses beholds the burning bush and we're left to wonder what this Entity was and why it was drawn towards Israel?

  Many of the Patristic-era fathers left descriptions of this Entity (called "God" for lack of a better term) very similar to how you're describing Him. Such a Being can't really be in the same image as man, nor even really be referred to as a "He" properly since He has no peers nor a mate. In short, He is self-existent and has an intelligence that transcends the Universe. If so, can we be sure He can even be described as El or Eloheim?
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  joey jojo

  @ David_Jay

  I find the Jewish culture and mind-set fascinating- so thank you for your overview on these points.

  A few points you mentioned left me a little confused,

  You say that Jews view the OT as liturgical, not historical. According to biblical scholars, there is no evidence outside the bible for the existence of Noah, Abraham, David or Solomon. No evidence of the exodus from Egypt. No evidence of Moses. Yet, don't the lives and deeds of these patriarchs form the bedrock of Judaism? So , scholars say these guys don't exist outside the bible and you say that Jews don't seem to care if they existed or not , then WHY bother living a Jewish life , either strictly, or not so strictly? I know Jews that won't listen to a football game on the radio during the Sabbath. There are many other rules that govern Jewish life that Jews are careful to observe. That tells me that some Jews at least, are fearful of displeasing God, even though he doesn't exist...does exist....doesn't....does?

  You seem to imply that a reason to believe in God is simply because the Jews exist due to the covenant with God. That statement at first glance has a whiff of arrogance about it. It seems to paint the picture that the Jews believe themselves to be over and above any 'normal' religion and that the usual rules don't apply to them because they are automatically Gods chosen group. Yet, is this not simply a 'belief', just like the overlapping generation 'belief'? Just because you believe it, doesn't make it truth.

  Lastly your statement, 'God won't pull any strings unless we allow it' left me speechless. That tells me Jews- like many other fundamentalist groups, consider themselves to be superior to other human beings because they are 'special' to the creator.

  This has gone a bit off topic but @David_Jay's comments were very interesting.

  As for the God of the OT allowing nasty things to happen, my short answer is that's how things were back then. God was simply worked into the text to suit the contemporary customs.
  
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  Saved_JW

  I don't know if the previous comments are directed at me specifically, but I am very well read on Jewish history and the current counter-missionary efforts of the Jewish community, specifically Rabbi Tovia Singer. So I am not ignorant of their position of God.

  I am also not ignorant of the Christian evangelical mindset either. I actually agree that ideas about God can be imposed on the OT scripture. When Christians impose an Omni-benevolent teddy bear god into scripture, they actually do it a disservice and are not honest with the text. When Christians present God in this way, its easy for atheists to read scripture and disagree with that cultural mindset and dismiss it.

  Notice that wasn't the presentation I gave. God is Love, but this is not to say he is Omni-benevolent or is "fair"

  He is Good. That which emanates from his word is by definition Good/Just
  
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  Cold Steel

  Saved_JW » God is the only eternal uncreated being in the universe.

  This is the contention of many evangelicals, but how do we know this? In the book of Genesis, we find Gods (Eloheim) speaking to each other. "Let US create man in OUR image, after OUR likeness" and "man has become as one of US." When we use the generic term man, we don't mean just one man: it's inclusive of all men and women.

  If Jesus is God (Jehovah), the Son of the Father, and if the Holy Spirit also is God, we have at least three Eloheim as the presiding council of this earth. The scriptures tell us that God is ONE, but the New Testament is fairly clear that this oneness is not literal. Jesus prayed to the Father concerning the Twelve, "...that they may be one, even as we are one." The oneness of the Twelve is directly correlated with the oneness of God. This is one reason that Christianity is criticized by both the Jews and the Muslims. One wonders, for example, that if Jesus was, and is, God, who waa hearing and answering prayers during Jesus' mortality, when he was a child, a man? And who heard Jesus' prayers when he prayed to the Father? The oneness in Christianity was a oneness of purpose, not a literal oneness as some of the Patristic fathers tried desperately to argue. They want the Trinity to be both literal and figurative.

  It just doesn't fit.
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  David_Jay

  Cold Steel wrote:

  If you believe the Jews borrowed the god language from their Mesopotamian neighbors, that may be true, but how do you -- David Jay -- know that this is how Abraham and Moses comprehended Him?

  The Jewish teachings on how Abraham and Moses comprehended God are found in Hebrew academia, history, and tradition, such as the Midrash. These contain views as old or older than those found in the Hebrew Scriptures.

  Abraham and Lot both knew many of the heathen and Moses was raised an Egyptian. Moses beholds the burning bush and we're left to wonder what this Entity was and why it was drawn towards Israel?

  Like the way Hebrew is written from right to left without vowels as opposed to English being written left to right with vowels, your question is a bit Gentile in thought as opposed to the way Jews think. We're not left to wonder what God is, at least the way Jews approach God. God is accepted on God's own terms.

  Also, it seems you skipped over my previous answer to you on how since Abraham came to acknowledge something about God that his contemporaries did not, God took a special interest in Abraham's descendants.

  And by the way, the Burning Bush is understood by many in Judaism to have been a manifestation of the Shekinah to Moses among the shrubbery on Mt. Sinai.

  Many of the Patristic-era fathers left descriptions of this Entity (called "God" for lack of a better term) very similar to how you're describing Him. Such a Being can't really be in the same image as man, nor even really be referred to as a "He" properly since He has no peers nor a mate. In short, He is self-existent and has an intelligence that transcends the Universe. If so, can we be sure He can even be described as El or Eloheim?

  You are right.

  The term "he" is actually not found in the Hebrew in reference to God. While a masculine pronoun appears, it is only due to syntax requirements. In Judaism, God has no gender. If you notice I never call God "he" or say things like "God himself." I don't even use "King" or "Lord," as those English words have masculine overtones. In Judaism it is actually wrong to ascribe gender to God. Instead of "King" we say "Sovereign," and instead of " Lord" we say "Adonai" or "the Eternal" or "HaShem."

  As to being in the "image" of God, this refers to sharing his qualities and abilities, albeit on a far smaller scale. God has no appearance as God does not exist in any form or body, spiritual or otherwise.

  God is only described as El and Elohim for a lack of a better term. Those were some of the first and oldest terms for the God of Abraham. G_d and HaShem are among some of the names to be developed for God In relatively modern times. But in the end, Jews as acknowledge God as mystery.
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  David_Jay

  Joey jojo,

  You are confusing a few subjects due to perhaps lacking a common frame of reference, that is all. But it can prove to be a stumbling block to comprehend what I am saying.

  For instance, you mentioned that...

  You seem to imply that a reason to believe in God is simply because the Jews exist due to the covenant with God.

  I said Jews accept God as real, not that we BELIEVE in God.

  Yeah, I know. That may not seem like something different to you, but there is a wide gulf in Jewish life between a belief (what one mentally assents to) and something that just is regardless of one's assent. Whether I believe it or not, you are real, right?

  You see, Jews aren't keen on "belief," especially these days. What you are is defined by what you do, not by what you say you are or what you claim to believe in. Most Jews, even the most religious, will tell you that they don't "believe" in God. That's more a Christian thing.

  Also no one, including Jews, are God's chosen-over-others. Each race and each person, religious or not, plays a chosen part unique to each. The "chosen" thing in reference to Scripture has to do with ancient language describing our part to play among all others. The Bible is a static picture of a time long past. We have different language and a different understanding for all this today.

  And we don't follow Torah or accept the existence of the Patriarchs because the Bible says so. We followed Torah before we wrote the Bible. We have a separate history that we later used a bit of in the Bible, but our history came first. We followed Torah first. We wrote the Bible after Solomon's Temple fell. So you can't ask why our culture accepts all these things in the Bible as we were doing that before there was a Bible.

  Plus, the Bible doesn't follow the historical view we have of ourselves. For instance, just read a Passover Haggadah. Notice how the story we tell of our deliverance on Passover night differs from what you read in Exodus. The Bible is the liturgical version, the Haggadah the traditional version, and there is a third historical one too.

  There's a lot more to take in that would take you far off track from this site. I'm not here to make any Jews out of anyone or to recommend religion itself to anyone. Consult MyJewishLearning.com if you want to know more about Judaism.