Had to scroll all the way to page 7 before I came across a trademark Sea Breeze trinity chart. 😞
Of all the charts in this post, the Twinkie chart made the most sense.
The point of existence and how it refutes the Trinity
by slimboyfat 228 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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TonusOH
Twinkies don't taste as good as they used to.
That is the single truest line written in this topic so far.
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peacefulpete
Kaleb said..
According to the Talmud and Josephus, on Nisan 14, the priests would hand over the first of thousands of lambs for the Passover Seder meals beginning at 12 noon and stop (I'm sure you meant start) the slaughtering beginning at 3 pm so roasting could be....
The Wars of the Jews, 6.423
Flavius Josephus translated by William Whiston
423So these high priests, upon the coming of that feast which is called the Passover, when they slay their sacrifices, from the ninth hour till the eleventh, but so that a company not less than ten belong to every sacrifice (for it is not lawful for them to feast singly by themselves), and many of us are twenty in a company,This is interesting.
The Synoptics specifically time the death at the 9th hour (3pm) on the day of Passover. Might the writer of Mark taken Josephus literally. As it reads (in English anyway) it could be understood that slaughter started at 3 the day of Passover.????
Another thought is that an original form of Mark did not identify the last meal as the Passover Seder but a later editor more distanced from the Jewish traditions did. Matt and Luke followed. In which case John, in this detail, might preserve an earlier form of the story.
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Halcon
That is the single truest line written in this topic so far.
Hehehe, they don't tho...
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KalebOutWest
Peacefulpete:
This depends upon what day Passover lands.
One does not start to observe Preparation the same time every year due to various circumstances, especially when the Temple stood and the various offerings had to be considered.
I am bad with numbers, so feel free to correct me if I am wrong. I will double-check with other sources as I can as translating Jewish hours into our common hours always gets me, not to mention the Hebrew calendar/Gregorian translation thing.
According to Mishnah Pesachim 5:1, the usual daily afternoon Tamid (continual offering) was slaughtered at 8.5 hours (approximately 2:30 PM) and offered at 9.5 hours (approximately 3:30 PM). You had to offer this always, somehow, no matter what. Keep this in mind.
However, on Erev Pesach (Passover Eve), when it fell on a weekday, the Tamid was offered an hour earlier (or even more) to allow time for the Passover sacrifices. This meant the slaughtering of the Tamid began at least around 1:30 PM and was offered by approximately 2:30 PM.
Immediately after the Tamid offering, the Passover sacrifices commenced. Thus, the slaughter of the Passover lambs began around 2:30 PM and continued until sunset. If Passover fell on a Friday, the Tamid was brought even earlier to accommodate the start of Shabbat.
Since we count Jewish hours in a day from sunrise, the 6th hour is our noon, the 9th being our 3pm, we can rightly conclude that War of the Jews is not describing a Preparation Day that falls on a Friday.
Why not? It describes sacrifices beginning after the normal second Tamid, approximately 2:30 PM.
Christian tradition is that Jesus died on a Friday and rose the following Sunday. So we have to follow the allowances in the law for an earlier start to the Preparation.
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Sea Breeze
@Halcon
If simultaneously, then it was two different persons (both God)...one dead and one alive, the one alive resurrecting the dead one?
In the bible, death means "separation". When your soul, spirit and body are joined - you are alive. When they become separated, you are dead.
Gen. 35 makes this clear early on in the bible:
And it came to pass, when she was in hard labour, that the midwife said unto her, Fear not; thou shalt have this son also.18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.19And Rachel died, and was buried in the way to Ephrath, which is Bethlehem.
Rachael died as her soul was departing. She was no longer whole. 1 Thess. 5: 23 describes a "whole" person as: the body, soul and spirit. Then, notice how Jesus describes death as the opposite : lack of wholeness. :
Luke 8 - While he yet spake, there cometh one from the ruler of the synagogue's house, saying to him, Thy daughter is dead; trouble not the Master.
50 But when Jesus heard it, he answered him, saying, Fear not: believe only, and she shall be made whole.
When Jesus three componenets of personhood were joined, he was a live. When his spirit (God) separated from his body, he was dead. (Same as anybody else)
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peacefulpete
If Preparation and crucifixion was thought of as on Thurs then resurrected on ("very early the first of the sabbath/week") early Sunday (the day of the sun), the expression '3 days and 3 nights' fits.
It's all a bit of fun. The story one way or the other was changed. Was John's timeline the older version, changed later through gentile Christian confusion about the day the lambs were slaughtered? Did Josephus' reading contribute to that? Josephus as we know had a huge role in shaping Luke's Gospel........
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aqwsed12345
The God Who Cannot Be Understood — But Is Worth Knowing
The topic this is the nature of God, and we must begin with a sense of awe and humility. How can finite human beings even begin to speak about the infinite? And yet, speak we must. Because at the very center of Christianity is the question: Who is the God we worship? In exploring the doctrine of the Trinity, we must explore it through Scripture, church history, and deep theology — but always with the aim of answering this simple and vital question.
1. The Trinity: Not a Complication, but a Defense
The doctrine of the Trinity was not created to complicate the Christian faith. It was not a clever invention of theologians with too much time on their hands. It emerged because early Christians were forced to defend the very heart of the gospel — that God Himself came to save us.
The Trinity isn’t a solution to a puzzle; it’s a shield for a miracle. It's the bold claim that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one God, fully united, and yet personally distinct — not three gods, not three roles, but three persons in one being.
2. A Mystery Worth a Lifetime
Often people say, “The Trinity is a mystery — we just have to accept it.” True. But the word mystery in Scripture (mysterion in Greek) doesn't mean something unknowable — it means something infinitely knowable. Like love, or beauty, or grace — something you can spend your whole life discovering without exhausting.
The Trinity is not illogical. It’s supra-logical — beyond full comprehension, but not nonsense. And that’s exactly what we would expect from God.
3. Three Responses to the Gospel – Then and Now
There are only three responses to the Christian message:
- Accept it fully — and become a disciple.
- Reject it entirely — and remain outside the faith.
- Pick and choose — and create your own version of the gospel.
The third category is the most dangerous. It often leads to false teachings and sects — where Jesus may still be admired, but no longer confessed as God. Where the Spirit becomes a force, not a person. And where the Father is a distant, unknowable deity.
The church had to respond. That’s why the creeds and councils were born.
4. A History Written in Blood and Ink
From the Council of Nicaea (AD 325) to Chalcedon (AD 451), the early church fought to articulate what Scripture revealed: that Jesus is fully God and fully man. That the Spirit is a person, not a power. That God is eternally triune.
These weren't abstract debates. Many of the church fathers suffered imprisonment, exile, torture — and even death — to defend what they believed about Christ and the Trinity.
They fought so that we might know whom we bow before today.
5. The Trinity and the Gospel of Forgiveness
Why does it matter that Jesus is God?
Because only God can forgive sins. Only God can bear the full weight of divine justice. Only God can unite heaven and earth in His own person.
If Jesus were merely an angel, or a created being, then God sent someone else to do the dirty work. But if God Himself came in the flesh, then the cross was not just an act of justice — it was an act of self-sacrificial love.
God chose to be unjust to Himself so He could be merciful to us.
6. Jesus: Fully God, Fully Man
The early heresies (like Arianism, Nestorianism, and Monophysitism) were not just academic errors — they struck at the heart of salvation.
- If Jesus is not fully God, He cannot save us.
- If Jesus is not fully human, He cannot represent us.
The councils made this clear: Christ is one person with two natures — divine and human, unconfused, indivisible. That’s why Mary could be called “Theotokos” — God-bearer. Not because she created God, but because the one she bore was truly God.
7. Why the Trinity Matters Today
The Trinity isn’t just doctrine — it’s the heartbeat of the Christian life.
- God the Father loves us eternally.
- God the Son came to die and rise for us.
- God the Spirit lives in us now.
And this is not just theology. It’s worship. It’s comfort. It’s the source of Christian ethics. “As the Father loved the Son, so the Son loved us. So love one another.” The relationship within the Trinity becomes the model for our relationships.
8. Seeing Christ — and Being Transformed
Jesus is the icon of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15). When we look at Him, we see what God is like. And as we gaze on Him, we are changed — "from glory to glory" (2 Cor. 3:18).
This is the great Christian promise: we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is (1 John 3:2). One day, we will not just believe — we will behold.
Conclusion: The Trinity Is the Gospel’s Shape
The doctrine of the Trinity is not a philosophical exercise — it’s the shape of the gospel. Without it, we lose everything. With it, we see the breathtaking beauty of a God who is love, who became one of us, who sent His Spirit to dwell in us — and who is shaping us into His own image.
So the question is not: Do you understand the Trinity perfectly?
But rather: Have you seen His face? Have you tasted His grace? Are you being changed into His likeness?“The Trinity is not an intellectual burden for Christians. It is the framework of our salvation, the beauty of our God, and the song of our worship.
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aqwsed12345
The Mystery of the Trinity: Understanding the Heart of the Christian Faith
One of the most profound and essential doctrines in Christianity is the mystery of the Trinity—God’s nature as one Being in three distinct Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. While often regarded as complex or mysterious, this doctrine is not an intellectual puzzle meant to confuse but a theological framework rooted in Scripture that safeguards the very core of the Christian gospel: who God is, how He loves, and how He saves.
God Is One – Yet Three in Person
The foundational affirmation of the Christian faith is that there is only one God (Deuteronomy 6:4). Yet the Bible attributes divine qualities, names, and actions to the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit. Each of these is presented not as different modes or roles of one person, but as distinct persons who are equally and fully God, existing eternally in perfect unity.
· The Father is God (John 6:27, Ephesians 4:6)
· The Son is God (John 1:1–14, Colossians 2:9, Hebrews 1:3)
· The Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3–4, 1 Corinthians 2:10–11)
These three persons are not separate gods (tritheism), nor is God merely revealing Himself in three successive modes (modalism). Instead, the Trinity teaches that the one divine essence is shared fully and equally by three co-eternal Persons.
Why the Trinity Matters
Some may wonder whether this theological complexity is necessary. Why not portray God in simpler terms—as one person? The answer lies not in philosophy, but in God’s own self-revelation through Scripture and in the person of Jesus Christ. The doctrine of the Trinity is not the product of theological speculation, but a faithful reflection of how God has revealed Himself in the narrative of creation, redemption, and new creation.
1. The Trinity Makes Sense of God’s Love
The Bible tells us that “God is love” (1 John 4:8). But love is inherently relational—it requires both a lover and a beloved. If God were a solitary being, He would not have known love until He created something to love. That would mean God’s nature was incomplete prior to creation.
However, the Trinity reveals that within the one divine essence, there has always existed an eternal relationship of love: the Father loves the Son, the Son loves the Father, and the Spirit is the bond of that love. Love is not something God begins to do; it is who He is. Only in the Trinity does the claim “God is love” become eternally true.
2. The Trinity Is the Key to Salvation
Without the Trinity, the gospel collapses. Consider this: Christians believe that Jesus died for our sins, bearing the punishment we deserved, and rose again to grant us life. But who is Jesus? If He is not fully God, He could not bear the infinite weight of sin or satisfy divine justice. If He is not fully human, He could not truly represent us or die in our place.
The incarnation—the Son of God becoming human—only makes sense within the Trinitarian framework. In Jesus Christ, God Himself bore our judgment. This was not a third-party transaction, nor divine child abuse, but the self-giving of God within Himself: the Son offering Himself to the Father through the eternal Spirit (Hebrews 9:14).
The cross only achieves salvation because the one who died was both fully God and fully man. Only the God-man could stand in the gap between a holy God and sinful humanity, satisfying justice and demonstrating divine mercy simultaneously.
3. The Trinity Shapes Christian Community
Human beings are created in the image of God (Genesis 1:26). If God is tri-personal, then being made in His image means we are made for relationship. Community, mutual love, humility, and self-giving are not human inventions—they reflect the eternal life of the triune God.
Jesus commanded His followers: “As the Father has loved me, so I have loved you. Abide in my love” (John 15:9). The love that exists between the Father and the Son becomes the model and source for Christian love. The church is not just an organization or belief system—it is a community drawn into the very life of the Trinity.
The Trinity and Church History
Though the doctrine of the Trinity is thoroughly biblical, it was clarified and defended in the early centuries of the church in response to heresies that distorted the gospel. Arius, for example, taught that the Son was the first created being—not eternal and not fully God. Others claimed that God only appeared in three forms at different times (modalism), while still others denied the full personhood of the Holy Spirit.
In response, the early church gathered in councils—such as the First Council of Nicaea (AD 325) and the First Council of Constantinople (AD 381)—to affirm what Christians had always believed: that the Son and the Spirit are of the same divine essence as the Father. These councils did not invent new doctrines but gave precise language to express biblical truth and to guard against misunderstanding.
Even terms like “person” and “essence,” which we now use in everyday theology, had to be developed carefully to avoid confusion. The concept of “personhood” itself owes much of its definition to the theological wrestling of the fourth and fifth centuries.
The Trinity and the Incarnation
The mystery deepens further in the person of Christ, who is both fully God and fully man. This dual nature was also a point of great debate in the early church. Some, like Nestorius, tried to separate the divine and human natures of Christ too sharply, implying two “selves” in Jesus. Others, like Eutyches, merged the two natures into a hybrid, effectively denying Christ’s true humanity.
The Council of Chalcedon (AD 451) resolved this by affirming that Christ is one person with two natures—divine and human—without confusion, change, division, or separation. This formulation remains essential for understanding salvation: Jesus represents God to humanity and humanity to God because He is truly both.
Without this, there is no real mediator (1 Timothy 2:5), no true sacrifice, and no hope for reconciliation with God.
The Trinity and Christian Hope
The doctrine of the Trinity is not an abstract mystery for theologians. It is the lifeblood of Christian hope and the foundation of our transformation. Believers are not merely forgiven—they are adopted into the family of God and drawn into the life of the Trinity.
Scripture teaches that those who trust in Christ will be conformed to His image (Romans 8:29, 1 John 3:2). Through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Christians participate in the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4). The very life of God begins to transform us, from one degree of glory to another (2 Corinthians 3:18).
This is the ultimate goal of salvation: not merely escape from judgment, but communion with God, participation in His love, and transformation into His likeness.
Conclusion: A Mystery to Worship, Not to Abandon
The Trinity is indeed a mystery—but not in the sense of something illogical or unknowable. In Scripture, a “mystery” is a truth that was once hidden but is now revealed to be understood more and more deeply. The Trinity invites us into endless wonder, not frustration.
This doctrine is not a burden to carry but a fountain of joy and truth. It anchors our understanding of God’s nature, the meaning of love, the depth of the cross, the promise of adoption, and the hope of glory.
The triune God is not a concept to be analyzed, but a reality to be adored.
We do not worship a formula—we worship the Father, through the Son, by the Spirit.Let us then live, love, and serve in the light of this mystery, not shrinking from it, but allowing it to shape our vision of God, our understanding of the gospel, and our identity as His people.
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slimboyfat
The Bible teaches that Jesus’ Father is the only true God (John 17.3) and that Jesus is the Son of God, the firstborn of all creation. (Col 1.15) You really don’t get simpler than that, which is the reason why most ordinary Christians perceive Jesus and God in those terms, despite what the later Trinitarian creeds say.