Jesus, the Great Convincer? (page 3)

LoveUniHateExams

Uh, which prophecy? - it's slightly vague but bear with me ...

Psalm 41:9 (NIV):

Even my close friend, whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me.

... and ...

Zechariah 11:12-13 (NIV):

12 I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver.

13 And the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter"-the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD to the potter.

There may be other verses, too.

Now to you it's tenuous/nonsense, to me it's tenuous/nonsense, but there are plenty of Christians who sincerely believe this crap.

They believe that one of the twelve would betray their master, not because nasty God forced him to but because this particular apostle chose to do so - exercising free will, tempted by the money.

Edited to add: thank you Xanthippe - that was the scripture that I had in mind.

Viviane

'He who has dipped his hand into the bowl with me shall betray me' - Matt 26:23

In what way is that a prophecy?

Viviane were you ever a member of the JW religion or just the college debating society?

Interesting question. It makes a huge assumption, creates a false dichotomy and attempts to belittle the experience that can be gained from learning proper debating.

See, that can go both way, such as "were you ever a JW or did you just wash windows for fun?"

I can come up with many more examples. Suffice to say, I won't.

Viviane

it's slightly vague but bear with me ...

well, no, if it's vague, it's not really a prophecy, now is it? Unless you are telling me that prophecy is vague, so vague as to mean any number of things, in which case it's just people saying vague stuff.

Now to you it's tenuous/nonsense, to me it's tenuous/nonsense, but there are plenty of Christians who sincerely believe this crap.

John Hagee is a modern prophet, using vague language in the Bible to declare God saw this coming, whatever the "this" is.

Point is, lots of people believe lots of things. A "prophecy" that can apply to a hundred things and only after the fact sort of can mean what you want it to is useless. Is that how we are defining prophecy? If so, yes, it's a prophecy.

If, however, we are defining it as "a foretelling of future events", it's kind of important to have, you know, actually foretold the events.

They believe that one of the twelve would betray their master, not because nasty God forced him to but because this particular apostle chose to do so - exercising free will, tempted by the money.

Well, that's another conversation, but it's impossible to have both free will and an omniscient god that knows the future.

LoveUniHateExams

Jesus, the Great Convincer? - it seems so, unfortunately.

Of all the religions, Christianity has the greatest number of adherents (approx. 2.4 billion - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity#Demographics) and is therefore the world's largest religion.

LoveUniHateExams

well, no, if it's vague, it's not really a prophecy, now is it? - who gets to make up these rules?!

You, me, Dr Bollocks on the Bakerloo Line?

To hundreds of millions of Christians world-wide, it was prophesied that Jesus would be betrayed by one of the twelve. It's nonsense but that's what I believed when I was a true-believer JW.

Is that how we are defining prophecy? - it's not how you or I define prophecy. It's how hundreds of millions of Christians define/accept prophecy.

It sounds silly but I have to ask: were you a JW, Viviane?

Viviane

who gets to make up these rules?!
You, me, Dr Bollocks on the Bakerloo Line?
To hundreds of millions of Christians world-wide, it was prophesied that Jesus would be betrayed by one of the twelve. It's nonsense but that's what I believed when I was a true-believer JW.

Rules? It's a a rule, it's just a question of "what is a prophecy". Is a specific foretelling of an event? If so, how do we know any event is the right one? Must the prophecy be specific enough to tell? On the other hand, are they supposed to be vague enough that a number of events can match and after the fact we have to pick and choose which events fit?

it's not how you or I define prophecy. It's how hundreds of millions of Christians define/accept prophecy.

Wait now, millions of Christians say it's very specific, other claim it's vague and only to be interpreted after the fact. Which is yours? I ask because that's what this is all about. If that is a prophecy, it's not specific enough to say "this was the event foretold". Jesus knowing Judas was the betrayer wasn't even something that required preternatural knowledge.

It sounds silly but I have to ask: were you a JW, Viviane?

It does sound silly that you feel you have to ask.

nicolaou

Good topic. You'd think that if all these men had actually lived with and been taught by the creator of galaxies, black holes and life itself that he might have commanded more loyalty.

LoveUniHateExams

it's just a question of "what is a prophecy". Is a specific foretelling of an event? - Yes, I think 'prophecy' means a foretelling of an event. True believers vary re details. Millions of Christians aren't too fussed on the details, it seems.

millions of Christians say it's very specific, other claim it's vague and only to be interpreted after the fact. Which is yours? - neither. If you'd read my previous posts on this thread, you'd realise that I'm not a believer in Bible prophecy. I said I was playing devil's advocate.

You're quite correct to probe the Christian belief that the Bible foretold Jesus' betrayal.

It does sound silly that you feel you have to ask - yes, I said it sounds a bit silly. Strange that you chose not to answer that harmless question ...

Viviane

Yes, I think 'prophecy' means a foretelling of an event. True believers vary re details. Millions of Christians aren't too fussed on the details, it seems.

Then they aren't foretelling "an" event.

neither. If you'd read my previous posts on this thread, you'd realise that I'm not a believer in Bible prophecy. I said I was playing devil's advocate.

My question has no bearing on whether you are a believer or not. You said there was a prophecy foretelling something, I am trying to determine how you concluded it's a prophecy. If you are saying that people claim it's a prophecy, we then need to shift the question to "how are they defining prophecy".

yes, I said it sounds a bit silly. Strange that you chose not to answer that harmless question ...

Why is it strange that I choose not to answer silly questions?

Xanthippe

Interesting question. It makes a huge assumption, creates a false dichotomy and attempts to belittle the experience that can be gained from learning proper debating. - Viviane

So you were never a JW, that answers my question. Belittles debating, seriously? How terrible! How about your belittling of people who come on this forum because their family has been trapped in a fucking cult for decades.

Jesus, the Great Convincer?

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