This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty 496 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • John_Mann
    John_Mann
    99% of our daily decisions aren't based on the scientific method.

    True.


    No we don't, and I've shown you why not. We can reach a theoretical concept of a god, but certainly not the Christian god. You're in denial.

    Really? With your unstable being bound by nothing? Wth?

    In accordance with St. Anselm's axiom, I thought of a god that is bound by nothing.

    Of course you can but it does not mean that this being bound by nothing is greater than one bound by his nature.

    My logic is impeccable. Yours is a red herring.

    You can't even be consistent with basic definitions. This alone is not impeccable logic.

    Second, it's YOUR conclusion that a god bound by nothing must necessarily be unstable. It's a non-sequitur. Why would such god be "unstable"?

    I'm following necessary truths that are necessary in all possible worlds, even imaginary ones.

    Because " bound by nothing" implies instability in all possible worlds.

    I can think of a god that has some criteria, even a predictable criteria, on how he choses to act within a spectrum of extremely good to extremely evil.

    A being that has some criteria it's not a being bound by nothing.

    It follows, then that I don't agree that such god would be unstable.

    So you're denying a necessary truth. This is pure non sense.

    Let's say such good would choose to consistently be evil. That wouldn't be "unstable", would it?

    You can't have consistency from "bound by nothing".

    The god that I'm thinking of can chose to be consistently good, or consistently bad.

    Bound by nothing prevents the existence of any consistency in all possible worlds.

    He can also choose when, and how and where to be such.

    Yes, random whim. Total instability.

    That makes him a greater god than one that is bound by whatever you can think of.

    How?

    I'm not saying such god exists;

    We're only exploring the premise of definition of God.

    I don't know. I see no evidence of it.

    The conclusion of the St. Anselm's ontological argument is the existence of the God defined by the first premise.

    The very St. Anselm's ontological argument is a logical evidence.

    There are three premises in St. Anselm's ontological argument. It's logical conclusion (by contradiction) is the existence of the Being defined by the first premise.

    But I'm merely pointing out that such god is much more consistent with the observable reality of this world, where good and evil co-exist, that the purported god of Christianity.

    You're pointing to nothing (literally). Just absurdly flawed beings.

    What I do know, is that mere logic can defeat the claim that St. Anselm's axioms of any help to prove the existence of the christian god.

    Are you saying that St. Anselm itself, the genius who crafted this very argument, was not able to use his own argument, but you are? With a "bound by nothing" being?

    JM, I'm not here to persuade you to abandon your faith in the god you have crafted for yourself (or that someone else crafted and you accepted it so);

    I'm just following logic wherever it leads me because I accept logic is true.

    if it gives meaning and purpose to your life, that's absolutely fine, just as long as you don't impose your worldview on others.

    Do not put words in my mouth. Since the beginning I said I'm just exposing a logical argument (two arguments actually, Pascal's wager too) that inevitably leads to the conclusion of the existence of God and the necessity of believing in God (Pascal's wager).

    Logical argument are self imposing for those who accept logic is true.

    I'm just pointing out that the logic behind it is flawed and detached from the reality that can be observed universally.

    The universally observed reality is the metaphysical realm.

    Sorry but your logic is very flawed. Any observer can see this.

    And thus ends my participation on this three.

    Thank you for your participation.

    Thank you for helping me to practice my dialectic in my broken English (my German is worse).

    And good luck for you.

  • deegee
    deegee

    John_Mann,

    "God cannot totally reveal Himself because this act would destroy the free-will of humans. This happens immediately at the hour of death of every human being."

    I think not since Satan proved otherwise.

    Satan did exercise his free will and sin against God in God's direct presence, clearly showing us that it is possible for someone to be in God’s direct presence and still have the free will to sin.

    This debunks your claim that people cannot have free will while in the presence of God.

    Also, Satan committed evil in a place in which there is supposed to be no evil, right in the presence of God. If indeed Satan, an awesomely perfect creature, can sin and rebel against God while in heaven, what hope do mere human beings have of not doing the same?

    So according to what we understand from the devil, human beings should be able to arrive in heaven and still sin.
    This means that a person can arrive in heaven, commit a sin and God will then condemn them to eternal death. Eventually, we should expect that everybody will end up in hell.

    ALSO,
    If God values free will right up until the point of death when he simply removes free will, it doesn’t make any sense for God to create a world in which we have free will.

    Think about this chronologically. A person is going to live for eternity, without time. But a person is going to live in this world for approximately seventy years if they are lucky.

    So human beings are going to spend a period of time which does not even count as a spec in the ocean of eternity having free will. The rest of the time they will not have any free will. How can it be then that God values free will so highly? It is not logical.

  • deegee
    deegee

    John_Mann,

    "Evil can only be isolated (and even this is only possible by ceasing free-will).
    Evil is inevitable and necessary in all possible worlds."

    You have claimed that we currently live in a world which is fallen and full of evil precisely because it is the only environment in which God can allow us to exercise our free will. But it is clear from the story of Satan that this is inaccurate.

    Satan was able to exercise free will in heaven, which is supposed to be a place of perfection directly in God’s presence. If this is the case then there exists a possible world (heaven) in which there is free will but also NO EVIL.

    This debunks your claim that God has to allow evil to exist in order to make room for human free will.

    Also, clearly according to this particular passage God could have created a world in which there was room for BOTH free will and the complete absence of evil.

    This is incredibly important.
    If God could indeed create a world which is both perfectly good but also provides the environment for free will to exist, then why didn’t he do that with us?

    If there is indeed a possible world in which there is both free will and no evil then why did God not place us in that world?

    Following on from all of the above, it is clear that free will is not of any importance to God as you claim, so, can you please therefore explain where evil came from without employing any arguments from free will?

  • deegee
    deegee

    John_Mann,

    ONCE AGAIN, my unanswered questions from before:

    "Our physical bodies and some features of our minds came to existence through natural laws.

    Only our immortal soul was made to be an image of God.

    Natural disasters are inevitable consequences of natural laws. And natural laws are necessary in a world that harbors free-willed agents limited in a physical world.

    Evil can only be isolated (and even this is only possible by ceasing free-will). That's why Hell must exist. And that's why there's no free-will in Heaven.
    Evil is inevitable and necessary in all possible worlds."

    If God supposedly can create a dimension of existence (Heaven, the afterlife according to you) to be free from:

    1. The evidence would not show beyond all doubt that the diversity of life rested on millions of years of relentless competition, death and destruction. Life would not have been all but wiped out in mass extinctions at least five times in its history.

    2. The predominant economy in the natural world would not be parasitic and predatory. The world really would show the loving qualities of its maker without having to ignore the majority of the facts.

    7.Natural disasters would not kill millions of earth's inhabitants. The planet would not be designed to destroy life.

    - Why couldn't he do similarly for the physical/natural world?

    - What's the point of creating a physical/natural world where 1, 2 & 7 exist if there is another dimension in which they do not exist?

    - What does God get out of having these two dimensions of existence which have starkly different characteristics?

    - If you had the option to create a dimension in which 1, 2 & 7 do not exist versus the option
    to create a dimension in which 1, 2 & 7 do exist, which option would you chose and why?

  • deegee
    deegee

    John_Mann,

    OTHER UNANSWERED QUESTIONS from before:

    "It's a personal axiom (I'd experienced a paranormal event)."

    Can you specifically tell when it is the unconscious dynamics of your mind at work versus when God is communicating with you?

    Can you make a clear distinction between these two things? If so, how exactly are you able to make this distinction?

  • Saethydd
    Saethydd

    Obviously if you have sensorial proof you can't have faith anymore. Is that hard to understand?

    Using an analogy from quantum mechanics:

    Faith: wave function .

    Sensorial evidence: wave collapse or a particle.

    Faith and sensorial evidence is just like velocity and position. You simply can't have both.

    You can't accept a premise (axiom) using sensorial evidence. You accept a premise through faith.

    You're conflating worship and belief. Even if his existence and power could be confirmed by sensory evidence, faith would still be required. Faith that the God you worship truly wants the best for you, etc.

    So I would argue that even if God could be confirmed with sensory evidence one could still show devotion to him (or worship) with "spirit and truth." All the evidence would do is allow us to determine that our worship is being directed at the correct entity, and isn't simply a myth that another human is using to control us. (The more probable conclusion.)

    Here's some of them that have convincing evidence:

    - Our Lady of Fatima (miracle of the sun)

    - Our Lady of Zeitoun

    Both of these happened decades ago and could easily have been blown out of proportion.

    In the first example, the "vision" was only seen by three people, meaning the others present may simply have been gullible and desperate.

    The second example happened in a highly religious area. I looked at the photograph and it isn't clearly a female figure. However, I can see why it might be close enough to give a person who is desperate to have their faith confirmed something at which to grasp.

    - Eucharist miracles of Lanciano and Buenos Aires.

    This story I would actually accept as providing some actual proof... if it could be confirmed.

    However, I have discovered no first-hand accounts confirming these events and certainly no first-hand accounts that corroborate these events. No video interviews with the experts that supposedly ran all these tests, or interviews with the people that supposedly discovered this piece of flesh. Unsurprisingly it also lacks the most important part of confirmation, the ability for multiple independent tests to be performed on the sample. Thus, the most probable conclusion I can draw is that this is nothing more than a sensational tabloid-level story which was invented sell magazines.

  • John_Mann
    John_Mann
    I think not since Satan proved otherwise.

    Good try but Satan it's not a human being.

    Satan did exercise his free will and sin against God in God's direct presence,

    Yes, no purely spiritual being can question God's existence.

    But even them once were not able to see God in a way necessary to collapse free-will.

    Satan sinned when God revealed Himself to them and the fate of men and the necessary Incarnation.

    clearly showing us that it is possible for someone to be in God’s direct presence and still have the free will to sin.

    Free-will between God and evil is only possible in a partial God's hidden environment.

    This debunks your claim that people cannot have free will while in the presence of God.

    Free-will is only possible in a partial presence of God.

    Also, Satan committed evil in a place in which there is supposed to be no evil, right in the presence of God.

    Partial presence. This is the official position of Catholic Church for centuries. There are no flip-flops in Catholic Church.

    If indeed Satan, an awesomely perfect creature, can sin and rebel against God while in heaven, what hope do mere human beings have of not doing the same?

    They never were at the same context. But nowhere I said humans cannot follow Satan's decision.

    Perfect as in the JW's theology? JW's theology makes no sense. There's no internal consistency.

    The awesomeness of Satan's nature (an archangel, one kind among nine kinds of angels) was the reason of his pride. He simply couldn't bear the idea of worship God with a human nature.

    So according to what we understand from the devil, human beings should be able to arrive in heaven and still sin.

    No.

    Satan never was in the no free-will Heaven.

    The spiritual world has several levels just like, in a sense, the physical world.

    This means that a person can arrive in heaven, commit a sin and God will then condemn them to eternal death.

    No.

    Eventually, we should expect that everybody will end up in hell.

    No.

    Wrong premises, wrong conclusions.

    ALSO,
    If God values free will right up until the point of death when he simply removes free will,

    Free-will collapses automatically and naturally. This is a necessary truth.

    it doesn’t make any sense for God to create a world in which we have free will.

    The purpose of temporary free-will between God and evil is authenticity which is demanded by justice. God is justice.

    Think about this chronologically. A person is going to live for eternity, without time. But a person is going to live in this world for approximately seventy years if they are lucky.
    So human beings are going to spend a period of time which does not even count as a spec in the ocean of eternity having free will. The rest of the time they will not have any free will. How can it be then that God values free will so highly? It is not logical.

    Just because you don't understand the inevitable implications of justice, free-will and authenticity does not means it's not logical.

  • John_Mann
    John_Mann
    If there is indeed a possible world in which there is both free will and no evil then why did God not place us in that world?

    There's not.

    God is love, truth and justice.

    Free-will is demanded by justice.

    Free-will implies inevitable evil. There's evil in all possible worlds, even in an atheistic interpretation of the world.

    Created evil cannot be reversed only isolated (Hell).

    Evil can only be isolated with the ceasing of free-will (between God and evil).

  • John_Mann
    John_Mann
    Can you specifically tell when it is the unconscious dynamics of your mind at work versus when God is communicating with you?
    Can you make a clear distinction between these two things? If so, how exactly are you able to make this distinction?

    My paranormal experience made me to be a Christian mystic. There are things that I can't explain to you, even in a metaphysical way.

    But you can easily check out my explanations that I can translate in a logical way.

    I chose to stick in this topic because I recognize Cofty being the best (in a metaphysical way) representer of Atheism and Scientism in this forum.

    It's still up to you recognize if my conclusions bear the ring of truth in them.

  • John_Mann
    John_Mann

    @ Saerhydd

    Even though miracles take place in the physical world the nature of your consciousness is always metaphysical.

    And you still needs faith to accept reality.

    Doesn't matter if physical or metaphysical reality.

    You can't suspend reason and/or faith in the process of understanding the reality.

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