This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe (page 15)

John_Mann

Im going to restate a question that I've asked twice now. What is your source of information? Who has given you all this supposed knowledge on the inner workings of the soul? According to you, souls that have been separated from the body (presumably the only souls that can remember being heaven, hell, or purgatory) can't speak with us physical beings to corroborate anything you're saying on the subject. As far as I can tell you have a lot of "answers" but zero proof.

I'm talking about metaphysical matters.

What kind of proof or evidence are you talking about? Mathematical? Logical? Scientific?

Are you talking about scientific proof or evidence when you say the scientific method is applicable to metaphysics?

Where did you get this information?

The very scientific method is supposed to be only applied to the physical world, just like an ordinary tool (hammer or screwdriver). I don't know if you're aware of that but you're applying a strange metaphysical interpretation upon science. You say science is the only way to get knowledge and scientific method is applicable to metaphysics. Nowhere in science there are such statements.

In fact you are following a philosophical system called positivism. Idk if you're aware of that or if you don't know what the scientific method is or what metaphysics is. Probably you're just a blind follower of positivism (lately it's spreading like a plague).

Do you base your life in science? Science is just a tool and try to view it as a golden calf will just bring you more disappointment (just like the JW disappointment). Because your life needs to be guided by a metaphysical principle and not by a hammer.

The scientific method is a philosophical system and metaphysics is also. Everything I said is subject to philosophical study since the dawn of man. And the test of it is time. Nature itself "hates" waste. If something is not true it will never last too much time. My view is standing for thousands years throughout many civilizations. Your view is just a little shadow in the stream of time. No matter how hard you try you simply can't change this fact.

Giving a more direct answer to your question I get my information through philosophical inquiry and through metaphysical revelation (both public and private) brought by non human beings (human souls can't do that without special permission) and through the test of time/history.

punkofnice

john_mann - I get my information through philosophical inquiry and through metaphysical revelation (both public and private) brought by non human beings (human souls can't do that without special permission) and through the test of time/history.

Have you any idea how unrealistic that sounds? I have to say, it's sounds a bit on the silly side. Sorry to be so abrupt.

John_Mann

Have you any idea how unrealistic that sounds? I have to say, it's sounds a bit on the silly side. Sorry to be so abrupt.

If you really think about it, it doesn't sounds unrealistic at all.

cofty

John thank you for your contributions to the thread. Having read all your comments I stand by my OP.

If christian theism was true it just would not be necessary to indulge in the sort of mental gymnastics we have seen above.

The claims of believers would just make more sense. They would be self- evidently true. The natural world, the history of life, revelation, miracles, prayers, prophecy, ethics, and more would all resonate with the claims of theism.

Instead the opposite is the case.

Paul declared that disbelievers are inexcusable. Nothing could be further from the facts.

John_Mann

The claims of believers would just make more sense. They would be self- evidently true. The natural world, the history of life, revelation, miracles, prayers, prophecy, ethics, and more would all resonate with the claims of theism.

That's right.

I just don't know why some people (the overwhelming majority) conclude the theistic claims are exactly what you described.

While others, like you, get the opposite conclusion.

Both groups base their conclusions in a metaphysical approach though.

deegee

John_Mann,

"While the soul cannot be reached through the scientific method..........It can be reached through intuition too. Search your own intuition and you will see."

Not quite sure I understand this statement but are you saying that a person's intuition is their soul?

Last time I checked, intuition is a function of the material brain:

Meditation and relaxation exercises quiet your rational left brain and awaken the perceptive faculties of your intuitive right brain. This opens the way to the unlocking of a deep level of consciousness where psychic and extrasensory perception can be done.

deegee

John_Mann,

........By what mechanism can an immaterial soul possibly alter the state of the body which is made of matter or affect the brain which is made of matter?
"Neuroplasticity. Intentional behaviour changes the matter in the brain."

Definition of Neuroplasticity according to http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/mobileart.asp?articlekey=40362:

"The BRAIN'S ability to reorganize itself by forming new neural connections throughout life. Neuroplasticity allows the neurons (nerve cells) in the BRAIN to compensate for injury and disease and to adjust their activities in response to new situations or to changes in their environment.

BRAIN reorganization takes place by mechanisms such as "axonal sprouting" in which undamaged axons grow new nerve endings to reconnect neurons whose links were injured or severed. Undamaged axons can also sprout nerve endings and connect with other undamaged nerve cells, forming new neural pathways to accomplish a needed function.

For example, if one hemisphere of the BRAIN is damaged, the intact hemisphere may take over some of its functions. The BRAIN compensates for damage in effect by reorganizing and forming new connections between intact neurons. In order to reconnect, the neurons need to be stimulated through activity."

There is no mention of an immaterial soul in this definition so obviously there is no known mechanism by which an immaterial soul could possibly alter the state of the body or affect the brain which are both made of matter.

Also, it seems you are admitting that the soul is in fact the brain? I thought they were separate and independent of each other?

"The soul needs the brain to be functional in order to interact in the material world."

As stated above, there is no known mechanism by which an immaterial soul could possibly alter the state of the body or affect the brain which are both made of matter, so I do not see how it's possible for the soul to need the brain.

deegee

John_Mann,

"Souls after the death of the body are only in heaven, purgatory or hell. They can't contact the living and vice versa."

Interesting.

So when a spirit medium claims to have contacted the dead during a séance, whom/what has the medium contacted?

deegee

John_Mann,

"Moral or natural evil requires consciousness to be perceived. So only after creation of the soul, humans were able to perceive evil."

What does the ability to perceive natural evil have to do with the occurrence of natural evil?

Apparently you misunderstood my question, my question was not about whether or not natural evil can be perceived by humans but about the timing of its occurrence.

The cataclysmic destruction of the dinosaurs en masse clearly shows that natural evil existed BEFORE humans came on the scene and that its occurrence has nothing to do with the Fall of Adam & Eve.

punkofnice

John_Mann - If you really think about it, it doesn't sounds unrealistic at all.

I have thunk....very deeply.....about these matters and what you say really comes over as bonkers.

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

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