by cofty 496 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
What was this 'revelation' then? I think an explanation of what it actually was will help me/others understand what you mean.
While private revelations from others can be helpful (like the apparitions of Mary throughout the world/history), they are mainly relevant to those directly involved.
The most important public revelation is the Resurrection, the sign of Jonah.
@deegee- I don't agree with your interpretation.
There's no official position from Catholic Church about why Jesus was killed. It's a complete mystery.
As a human he was doomed to die. The original sin needed to be paid with his death. But maybe could be a natural death. There's about 4 views in CC about the crucifixion of Christ.
The text you mentioned is about original sin (the "generator" of all sins). Baptism removes the guilty of this sin because the death of Christ. But it doesn't removes the consequences. Actually all consequences of your sins need to be paid by you (here or in purgatory or both). This payment is through suffering under special conditions. The Catholic faith gives meaning to our inevitable suffering, no other system gives that AFAIK (the meaning to suffering was a goal to Nietzsche).
The removing of sin is about the guilty of sin (which is perdition, second death) but not the consequences of sin (suffering).
Basically you are confused about guilty and consequences of sin.
John_Mann,
"In the spiritual world there's no free-will anymore. The angels once had free-will too."
1. At what point did the beings in heaven stop having free will? What caused this to happen?
2. What causes a person's free will to be removed when they go to heaven?
3. Now we know why there is no evil in heaven:
The beings there have no need to make choices. They are nothing more than eternal zombies.
Are God and Jesus eternal zombies too, lacking free will?
John_Mann,
"Three years ago I experienced a vision"
I note that you have declined to provide the details of your vision.
I'm not asking for the specific details/ content of your vision just the following:
Did you receive this vision from God himself?
What were the conditions under which you experienced this vision? Were you praying, for example?
John_Mann,
"The most important public revelation is the Resurrection, the sign of Jonah."
What does the Resurrection have to do with the sign of Jonah? They are apples and oranges:
Jonah was still ALIVE while in the belly of the sea creature. Jesus was DEAD while buried in a tomb.
Further, Jesus' resurrection cannot be proven historically, it can only be proven theologically.
Did you receive this vision from God himself?
Idk. Probably not. But was with His permission of course.
What were the conditions under which you experienced this vision?
I was just relaxed. No drugs, alcohol, nothing. Normal conditions, inside my house, no depression, etc..
Were you praying?
No. I was agnostic at the time.
What does the Resurrection have to do with the sign of Jonah? They are apples and oranges:
Jonah was still ALIVE while in the belly of the sea creature. Jesus was DEAD while buried in a tomb.
Jesus itself called his resurrection this way.
Further, Jesus' resurrection cannot be proven historically, it can only be proven theologically.
Exactly.
1. At what point did the beings in heaven stop having free will?
Some point before the original sin.
What caused this to happen?
It was revealed to the angels the humankind will fall and God himself would become a human. This implied angels to worship the human nature in God. Some of them didn't like that and rebelled.
2. What causes a person's free will to be removed when they go to heaven?
Total revelation. Total revelation means instant discernment and the vision of God. When a free-willed being sees God he can't anymore choose (between God and evil). Just like you don't have free-will between choosing a ton of gold or a pin. Free will needs natural laws and total privacy, that's why nobody can read your mind and why God is not totally revealed to us (almost hide).
Are God and Jesus eternal zombies too, lacking free will?
No.
John_Mann,
"Idk. Probably not. But was with His permission of course."
What was the source of your vision then?
To whom/what did God give permission in order for you to receive your vision?
John_Mann,
"Jesus itself called his resurrection this way."
Jesus needs a lesson in how to create an appropriate analogy - that is, apples must be compared with apples not oranges.
"Exactly."
I see that you agree that there is no evidence outside of the Bible for Jesus' resurrection.
