Ruin those Ruining th Earth

by peacefulpete 52 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • waton

    In 1957 I found this text in the small wt reference book "Make sure---of all things"

    I am sure, -- of all things --it was not the environmental pollution issues that were the things people and hence wt inc worried about then. and

    Then in wt interpretation the "Earth" was referring to the population, the planet itself being deemed ( wrongly ) as indestructible, supporting and everlasting population.

  • Finkelstein

    Did the writer somehow anticipate the modern environmental situation,

    or did he intend something more in keeping with the Bible's general

    concerns of morality and sin?

    It was obviously concerned about morality and sin, the ancients weren't aware of pollution or concerns about environmental harm.

    Religionists have spun scripture to make it sound like mankind's ruination of the physical planet.

  • Matijevic
    Secondly, does the context help? Yes, rev 19:1,2 says:
    “After these things I heard a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, “Alleluia! Salvation and glory and honor and power belong to the Lord our God! “For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication; and He has avenged on her the blood of His servants shed by her”
    NO, rev 19:1,2 says: 1 και And μετά after ταύτα these things ήκουσα I heard ως as φωνήν [2 sound όχλου 4 multitude πολλού 3 of a great μεγάλην 1 a great] εν in τω the ουρανώ heaven, λεγόντος saying, αλληλούϊα Alleluia; η the σωτηρία deliverance, και and η the δύναμις power, και and η the δόξα glory του θεού ημών of our God. 2 ότι For αληθιναί true και and δίκαιαι just αι are κρίσεις αυτού his judgments; ότι for έκρινε he judged την the πόρνην [2 harlot την μεγάλην 1 great], ήτις she who διέφθειρε (διεφθειρε β εφθειρεν ατσ) corrupted την the γην earth εν with τη πορνεία αυτής her harlotry; και and εξεδίκησε he avenged το the αίμα blood των δούλων αυτού of his bondmen εκ from out of χειρός αυτής her hand. rev 11:18 says: και And τα the έθνη nations ωργίσθησαν were angry, και and ήλθεν [2 came η οργή σου 1 your wrath], και and ο the καιρός time των of the νεκρών dead κριθήναι to be judged, και and δούναι to give τον the μισθόν wage τοις to δούλοις σου your bondmen, τοις to the προφήταις prophets, και and τοις to the αγίοις holy ones, και and τοις to the ones φοβουμένοις fearing το όνομά σου your name, τοις to the ones μικροίς small και and τοις to the μεγάλοις great, και and διαφθείραι to corrupt τους the ones διαφθειροντας corrupting την the γην earth.

    See the difference? Glad to help if you need it!
    Another important thing are the words of 24 elders of Revelation: " But the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time came for the dead to be judged and to reward your slaves the prophets and the holy ones and those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth. " (11:18) The word translated as ruin is διαφθείρω and can relate to moral or physical deterioration, decay, destroying or killing. Since destroyers will be destroyed by God, it is very likely that this particular ruining means the physical decay, destruction of earth's flora and fauna. (Judges 6: 4; 1 Sam. 6: 5) Otherwise it turns out that God intends to corrupt morally those who are already corrupt, which does not make sense! For centuries, there was devastation of our home at the local level, and the word of God confirms it by mentioning destruction of Israel and Philistine country. However, this verse of Revelation points to something new, to destruction of the whole earth, our planet (compare Rev 11:18 with verses 9 and 10)! This is exactly what is happening in our time !!! Luke 21 describes the impending consequences of global deterioration of emerald-sapphire sphere: " Also, there will be signs in the sun and moon and stars, and on the earth anguish of nations not knowing the way out because of the roaring of the sea and its agitation. People will become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. " (25,26) The word sea, according to the Bible, can sometimes mean a lake or river. (Isaiah 19: 5; Jer 51:36) ... All in all, it seems to me that we are not too far from the fulfillment of Luke 21:25, 26. When that happens, it will become clear that human governments can not provide protection against the problems they created - moral and physical ruination of the earth and its inhabitants. (Jer 10:23) Anguish and hopelessness will prevail. Is it not the best moment for arrival of someone who can help good people and heal our planet ?! Luke 21:27 says: " And then they will see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. " Understand it? Glad to help if you need it! check this out:

    Many former JWs carry baggage of worry about a couple phrases years after they have separated from the church. I've seen it in person and on this forum. Lingering "what ifs" if you will. This single phrase lifted from context and only recently reinterpreted has haunted some former JWs this way.
    Thank you for lifting baggage of worry ie, what if the caring God help us to solve environmental problems! I feel such a relief because I know now that everything is in the hands of greedy businessmen, incompetent politicians and the shadow rulers! Hooray!!!
    Here we have a sectarian text written by a "John", which John we don't know for certain as there was differing opinions very early in church history. (John the elder, John the presbyter, some other John?).
    Presbyter, (from Greek presbyteros, “elder”), an officer or minister in the early Christian Church intermediate between bishop and deacon or, in modern Presbyterianism, an alternative name for elder.
    Some other John could be Johnny be good, from the song!
  • Finkelstein

    Revelation 11:18

    18 The nations were angry,
    and your wrath has come.
    The time has come for judging the dead,
    and for rewarding your servants the prophets
    and your people who revere your name,
    both great and small—
    and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

    What the writer is saying here is the ruination of righteousness and other ungodly acts which ruined the earth.

    Again what the Scriptures are stating is that god will destroy the unfaithful ones who choose not to worship Yahweh but other gods and those who destroyed the land of his chosen people who were worshipers of him, its not about the environmental pollution of the earth in a physical sense.

  • Matijevic
    Hello Finkelstein, glad to help you!

    About rev 11:18 διαφθείραι=aorist infinitive active, means past tense! It refers to those whom God will destroy, διαφθείροντας=present participle active,means present tense! It refers to those who are destroying the earth, which means job is not done!

    rev 19:2 , like I wrote, has two variants. 1 ἔφθειρεν the best choice, supported by most manuscripts.The word is not the same, but is related to διαφθείρω, because moral and physical corruption goes hand in hand! 2 διεφθειρε less probable original verb, but it does not help you either, cause verb is in aorist, past tense, which means job is done! I hope you see the difference now! I am begging everyone to read carefully what I wrote, before posting a reply! Thanks in advance

  • Matijevic


    Since destroyers will be destroyed by God, it is very likely that this particular ruining means the physical decay, destruction of earth's flora and fauna. (Judges 6: 4; 1 Sam. 6: 5) Otherwise it turns out that God intends to corrupt morally those who are already corrupt, which does not make sense!

  • careful

    As any good NT lexicon points out, the Greek word diaphtheiro (διαφθείρω) can have either a physical or moral meaning (BDAG, 239; Grimm-Thayer, 143). At Luke 12:33 it is found in the first sense; at 1 Tim 6:5, the second.

    SBF, your comment “It’s fair to point out that JWs probably interpret Rev 11:18 in a way the author didn’t intend. It’s also fair to point out that this is not at all uncommon, and indeed NT writers do the same with the OT” is good. However, I would add that in the Johannine writings the author(s) very frequently employed intentional ambiguity. Indeed he/they seem to delight in it. Thus to say that the author of Rev “didn’t intend” a certain meaning can be problematic on its face.

  • Finkelstein

    Getting back to the original topic.......

    I thought it might be timely to discuss Rev 11:18 which has recently become a popular text for those Christians concerned about environmental threats of pollution and climate change. Is this passage being interpreted correctly?

    If someone interprets these Scriptures as acts of environmental pollution they are being intellectually dishonest and over extending the inherent intent of those texts.

    Those ruining the earth as spoken about in the bible is talking about those who ruined and destroyed the land of the chosen ones of Israel .

    Of course some delusional doomsday nutters might interpret these words as A Ha see we are living in the end times, look at all the environmental ruination going on all over the world !

  • Matijevic

    Ok. I am delusional doomsday nutter and you don't want to evaluate my arguments. It's a lot easier to poison the well! So, any meaningful conversation is futile, unless someone share your opinion! Am I right?

  • Finkelstein

    I evaluated your argument and position and shown your lack of intellectual dishonesty.

    Over interpreting the structures as a means of exploitation is what some people/religious organizations do, the JWS do this quite often to support their doctrinal position that mankind is living in the End Times.

    Avoidance of truth and honesty is apparent by these organizations and people not surprising perhaps since these people are trying to attract attention to literature they published and also cultivate power and control to themselves.

Share this