by twinkletoes 17 Replies latest watchtower bible
How nice God supplied the answer CLEARLY in his word.
That about hits the point, Gumby! It seems that if the Bible doesn't say it, the WTS are more than happy to 'fill in the gaps'!!
Really though, if the Bible doesn't say it, then we don't know. Simple really.
Cheers, Ozzie
Ozzie--- I am looking at revelation 7 here and it looks to me like there are 144k who have a seal in there foreheads and also a great crowd of which no man is able to number . The arguement you present leaves me a bit confused , why would there be a specific number for some and yet others are left to an unknown ,if the whole thing is an unknown ?
Also most other religions that I have examined believe the heaven or hell scenario for everyone and no earthly hope at all , catholic, baptist ,methodist in fact some teach the earth will be of no importance and serve no purpose beyond what we experience in this life .
Maybe there is no less then 144K, but there is more. Maybe the 144K are all in heaven and the great crowd (Unnumbered) are added on, but won't know how many until afterward. It's just a idea, nothing more!
G'day heathen,
Just to pick up on a couple of points:
it looks to me like there are 144k who have a seal in there foreheads and also a great crowd of which no man is able to number
There's no problem here! It reminds me of the complicated explanation that the WTS gives about the "other sheep" that Jesus spoke of in the gospels. The Borg has a convoluted explanation that centers on their teaching of two classes. In fact, nothing of the sort was being discussed there. In context, it's obvious that Jesus was talking of the Jews and the Gentiles. "These also he would bring".
So it is with Revelation 7 and Revelation 14. Why complicate what is already pretty graphic in its detail? Clearly Jesus is contrasting the number of Israelites whom he would call with those of the Gentiles, a truly "great crowd". What's so hard about that?
You'll be able to obtain much helpful literature on this and other scriptural matters from Randy Watters at www.freeminds.org
I recommend it to you.
As far as this point is concerned:
most other religions that I have examined believe the heaven or hell scenario for everyone and no earthly hope at all , catholic, baptist ,methodist in fact some teach the earth will be of no importance and serve no purpose beyond what we experience in this life .
Perhaps they do, although this hasn't been my experience in Australia. However, what is important is not what others believe, but what we personally believe. BTW each minister of religion (from different denominations) including those having great authority, that I have discussed this with, do not teach the way you are describing.
Again I recommend good literature obtainable from Freeminds.
Cheers, Ozzie
baptist ,methodist in fact some teach the earth will be of no importance and serve no purpose beyond what we experience in this life .
Heathen,
I am with Ozzie here. Most churches I attended, non-denominational, Baptist, etc., all taught in a literal 1000 reign ON EARTH with Christ.
There are also those whom you speak of which teach the earth will be burned up, but I have never attended a church of that type.
Gumby
Well ozzie all I can say is that I'm not buying into your explanation thus far . I was never a dub but can see the argument they make as being valid on this point .I cannot see why a destinction has to be made between the hebrews and the gentiles as you describe . I am looking at james 1:1 where the 12 tribes are referred to as being scattered about and makes no reference to the hebrews being an exclusive group . I don't think tho that the tribes mentioned there are part of the 144k mentioned in revelation but think it is possible that the same situation of the tribes being scattered about exists .Rev.7-9 states that the great crowd comes from all nations and tribes and peoples and toungues it does not say exclusive to gentiles .
gumby-- WHat I can say that I've heard here in the bible belt of the USA is a little different than what you are saying .Are you saying you believe in jesus returning in the flesh a second time ? It was my experience from talking to baptists and such that they believe in a rapture that will take place prior to the destruction of the earth but they make no mention of entering heaven for the purpose of corulers of earth with Jesus .I would appreciate if you would clarify , I am always interested in others opinions and views.
Get real folks...The wt uses "memorial tombs" at John rather than "graves" because the technical point (use of tomb vs hades)seemed to offer a way (altho with great stretching of the text)to harmonize it with the teaching that those who sinned against the HolySpirit would "not be forgiven in this system nor that to come". This also is the necessary interpretation of John (tho creating an awkward change in tenses in passage) if you object to the idea that God would resurrect people only to kill them again for sins of past. (a minority Rabbinic opinion at the time)
It was an easy step to include others that God disliked (eg.Sodomites) with those who sinned against Holy Spirit and therefore not returning. The possibilty that NOT everyone will be resurrected served to quiet questions about Hitlers and Stalins and Achans. It also cemented organization loyalties for fear of being judged by God as unworthy of resurrection if dying as disfellowshipped person. As to hooberus...you gave me the best laugh today!! To suggest this God will recollect the molecules from a lond dead person to remake the same flesh is hilarious if reasoned out. The molecules have long been recycled and assimilated into the rest of the biota. It may well mean extracting molecules from one person (or steaming pile of poo) to give to another. The ancient doctrine of a god resurecting his worshipers was another ancient myth borrowed from the Ugarits and other Mediterranian cults. It predates the Jewish faith.
Why did they (The Society) have to add to this scripture, giving a totally different meaning to the original understanding.
Why, dear Twink (and peace to you!)? For the same reason they changed the "man who is a Jew" at Zechariah 8:23, from the Christ to THEM... and WHO the "ten men" go with... Christ ("we have heard that God is with YOU")... versus THEM ("we have heard that God is with you [people]"):
To mislead, if possible... even the chosen ones. Matthew 24:14
Again, peace to you!
A slave of Christ,
SJ
