Is Jesus God? (page 5)

Vanderhoven7

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth...

All things were created by him and for him

Thomas: The Lord of me and the God of me.

Jesus: Get off your knees Thomas, I am not your God. I was an angel in my pre-human existence.

Phizzy

I didn't know there was a "Gospel According To Vanderhoven7" !

Let’s talk about Hebrews 1:6 from a different angle. This verse is where the Father says ”And let all the angels of God worship Him.” in reference to Jesus, or as the NWT renders it, “do obeisance to him”.

So how can we determine the most accurate way to translate this verse without the typical and unfruitful argument over the Greek?

Well, let’s take a look at what the watchtower has done throughout the years in regards to this verse.

- In the 1970 edition of the NWT, they rendered it as “And let all God's angels worship him.".

- In the 1969 Kingdom Interlinear, even though they changed the Greek rendering to be “let do obeisance toward”, they still render the actual translation as “let all God's angels worship him."

- In the 1984 NWT (with references) it reads "And let all God's angels do obeisance to him."

Now the important part of this, is in the reference column of the 1984 NWT, where there’s a reference to Deuteronomy 32:43. If you go read Deuteronomy 32:43, you won’t really find anything that seems to be a reference to Hebrews 1:6, but if you look a little closer at the reference, it actually says “De 32:43 LXX”. This LXX is a reference to the Lexicon or what’s more commonly known as the Septuagint, which is the Greek translation of the Old Testament.

What do you see when you read the Septuagint version of Deuteronomy 32:43? You see this: “43 Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship him;…”

So these words are said about the Father in Deuteronomy 32:43, then the Father literally quotes Deuteronomy 32:43 as a directive for all of his angels to WORSHIP Jesus in Hebrews 1:6.

The worst part about all of this is that the watchtower knows all about it because they put the reference in the NWT. The reference has obviously been removed from the latest online version of the NWT, but you can go download the 1984 NWT in pdf format right off their website and see it for yourself. Clear as day, they reference the LXX / Septuagint version of Deuteronomy 32:43 in Hebrews 1:6. They make that connection themselves, all on their own.

So it’s blatantly clear to anyone doing just some basic research, comparing practically every other reputable translation along with the Septuagint, that this should absolutely be rendered as WORSHIP, and not how the latest NWT butchers it. The watchtower says it themselves by using that reference.

I know it, the watchtower knows it, and now you know it too.

Sea Breeze

@Sanchy

One of the primary agruments from atheists is that God cannot exist because of the existence of evil. But, then they turn right around and mock the idea of God's judgment of the evil they claim is evidence of God's non-existence.

That doesn't make any sense. The only way to preserve Free Will and justice is to judge evil, just as all free societies do in courts of law. Jesus claimed judgment will certainly happen and offers himself as a substitute for that judgment.

I am not surprised that God would offer himself in place of his children, like many other parents have done with their own children:

"In April 2010, devastating tornadoes struck 17 counties in Mississippi. When one came barreling through Yazoo City, Nikki knew she had to protect her kids.

The 30-year-old mom placed a mattress over her three small sons and planted herself on top of it to shield them as the house came down around them. All three boys made it through the storm, but unfortunately Nikki did not. The children's grandmother, Sherry Carpenter, later said, "She saved those kids and gave her life, but that was Nikki, because those kids came first."

Riley

The Old Testament is littered with the phrase “the word of the lord appeared “ and the lord said. It is not entirely clear who or what is happening. This figure seems to be recognized as god yet separate from god.

The entire book of John is dedicated to this idea. In the beginning was the word, no one has seen giod, only the son.

Jehovah witness theology on the subject never really bothered me ( god created an angel who created the world and everything then gives it back to god. ) What bugs me is they no concept of how the New Testament is referring to the Old Testament and nothing is really clear outside of Jesus being the visible manifestation of god in the Old Testament.

It is not invented by false religion . It is just in the bible. It is completely understandable who Jesus is god in the flesh.

PioneerSchmioneer

Sea Breeze:

To "worship" in Koine Greek (and in ancient times) means to "offer an act of obeisance" in modern American and UK usage.

The word at Hebrews 1:6 is the Greek verb PROSKUNEO, and it means to "perform an act of reverence before" another person, usually one of higher rank or someone you honor.

It occurs, for instance, at Matthew 20:20:

Then the mother of the sons of Zebedee came to him with her sons, and kneeling [proskynousa] before him, she asked a favor of him.

According to Josephus, this was the way people would greet the high priest--he actually uses the same Greek word--since they were the representative (though not the incarnation of) God, during the days the Second Temple was standing.

This likely explains why Cornelius is spoken of greeting Peter at Acts 10:25, with the use of the word PROSKUNEO and Peter rejects it.

To show that the word has only reference to the act and not to creed (which is often the case in Judaism), it is used in John 4:22) as the word for "worship":

You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.

One can "worship" what they "do not know." In other words, one can "bow before" something they have no real knowledge of.

If the word meant to "worship" as in "belief and adore and creed," then that would be different, but PROSKUNEO does not. It refers to homage, kneeling, prostration.

Jehovah's Witnesses do tend to bend the rules a lot with the New World Translation. But in some cases they are just different, in the minority--and people find it irksome.

In the end, it is a play on words. Obeisance is something you give to a king or a deity anyway, and a king almost always represents a god on earth. Again just like the high priest of the Temple was a representative of God (though not an incarnation). So it doesn't matter what word you use. The context still states in Hebrews that Jesus is greater than the angels because he is like God to them.

And thus the problem with whatever words the NWT tries to choose. You can only go so far.

blondie

No! When I left the WTS and started trying to find another "Christian" religion, I had 2 teachings that I would not accept 1) the Trinity and 2) burning forever in hellfire. None passed on both points as I was concerned. The LDS (Mormon) said they didn't believe in a trinity but a "binity" that Jesus and Jehovah were both god. Holy spirit was left out of it. And another said that Satan did not exist, although the bible clearly says that Jesus had a conversation with Satan. I stopped looking. Some ex-jws don't have the same parameters as I do, and some said that privately they would not support those teachings and were in it more for the social life. There are so many other markers that are easier for me to see, the lack of true love in congregations, hidden rocks in the water. People tend to overlook that too. So I have found very few people convincing about whether Jesus is or is not god. But lack of love, is more evident after time. When I see these conversations, I appreciate the research people, some bible scholars, have done on the subject. But is becomes very circular, really going nowhere, no one changing their original opinion. I do appreciate the time and research you have done.

Rattigan350

Why is this even an issue?

It is obvious that Jesus is Jehovah God's only-begotten son. also called only-begotten god.

Phizzy

" It is obvious that Jesus is Jehovah God's only-begotten son. also called only-begotten god. " You are using the VERY POOR N.W.T version of the Bible evidently, .....to prove a point ?

You really MUST try harder !

Is Jesus God?

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