Origin of Life

by cofty 405 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Viviane
    Viviane
    So I was not previously familiar with your style of going through others' posts and declaring right and wrong with apparent confidence and authority, but not much argument. I'm not sure how to respond to that. For example, you are welcome to your opinion that I mischaracterised materialism as involving circular reasoning, but I don't agree. I don't know there is much more to say about it unless you elaborate.

    Well, first, I don't "declare" you wrong. I simply point out that you are based on evidence. It's no different that if you were claiming 2+2=5.

    Second, I didn't make any claim that you mis-characterized materialism. I said, quite accurately, that what you claim were assumptions inherent in Cofty's arguments are nothing of the sort.

    Third, your quote refuting that obvious fact was, in fact, a snippet from an article on naturalism, something very different, which also is based on an incorrect premise, namely this: " Naturalism’s claim that, by confining itself to purely material explanations for all things, it adheres to the only sure path of verifiable knowledge is nothing but a feat of sublimely circular thinking: physics explains everything, which we know because anything physics cannot explain does not exist, which we know because whatever exists must be explicable by physics, which we know because physics explains everything."

    That's one of the most absurd things I have ever read. And it's wrong. It's little more than an attempt to undermine science by making the same mistake you did, mis-labeling what circular reasoning is and being far less than honest about what science is and how it works.

    How can science ever "show" that life doesn't come from God?

    Ooh, ooh! Strawman alert! Science doesn't seek to show that, nor was that in any way Cofty's point.

    Not content with misrepresenting your own OP, you now deny the plain meaning of WT comments on the feasibility of scientists creating living cells from non-living matter

    Oh my, you are accusing Cofty of doing EXACTLY what you are doing. This is what happens when you use pseudo-intellectualism and dishonesty to try to make a gap to wedge god in. SBF gets caught. Again.

    You apparently misunderstood JW teaching as meaning there is a theological barrier to scientists ever creating life from non-living matter.

    What is a "theological barrier"?

    In any event, all of your arguments, ever-changing as they may be, are based on wrong assertions, mislabeling and outright untruths. So, that's why it's easy to say "you're wrong". Next time you try this, you might want to know something about the subject and not try it on people who actually know something about science and philosophy.

  • Viviane
    Viviane
    From my own perspective sometimes SBF raises interesting points and invites thinking out of the box however other times the comments come across as being esoteric, even obtuse, just for the sake of being so.

    Many times he is conflating things and mislabeling them, for instance materialism and naturalism. I've no use for someone being intentionally obtuse.

    He'll extend the conversation beyond the pure scientific method to include more esoteric and abstract thinking.

    Science includes abstract thinking and esoteric knowledge and discussions. The problem comes with SBF clearly not understanding some of the things he is quoting or discussing.

    On the other hand I think that SBF is one of the few posters on here that can argue for a different but still non-theistically based position. It's a shame that the engagement often leads nowhere.

    If only he didn't post in an intentionally obtuse manner, we might know what that position is.

  • Xanthippe
    Xanthippe
    Xanthippe : " Ah yes JWs separate spirit and soul"
    The Rebel: The O.P is " Origin of Life" but the question is raised on a ex JWs site, and I think comparatively few exiting JWs, have thought any deeper on the " Origin of Life" than watchtower literature. My point is for many, you leave the organisation on reasons of concience,then you scrabble to maintain your family connections, and then you get bewildered by the " Origin of Life."

    The Rebel, I'm trying to get a grip on what theists think now about the origin of life to be able to speculate how they would react to scientist finding how it originated in this planet. I think cofty is saying the big problem for creationists is they can't accept evolution without having the Origin of Life explained.

    So is this life force that comes from God passed on from Adam and Eve or what? If that can be replicated by scientists (Or shown to have developed without need for God) then he's redundant.

  • konceptual99
    konceptual99
    Science includes abstract thinking and esoteric knowledge and discussions. The problem comes with SBF clearly not understanding some of the things he is quoting or discussing.

    Of course science does include those things however Cofty, to his credit, tends to stick to the empirical. SBF seems to automatically want to introduce the philosophical whenever he sees Cofty present a position. I would suggest that some take Cofty's consistency with the empirical as dogmatism which, of course, is completely the wrong thing to do. Whether that perception drives SBF's responses to Cofty or not, sometimes his posts are certainly obtuse and potentially just pseudo-intellectual nonsense. The worst part is that then the discussion goes nowhere.




  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat
    Well, first, I don't "declare" you wrong. I simply point out that you are based on evidence. It's no different that if you were claiming 2+2=5. Viv

    If you have evidence for the assertions you make why not include it in your post?

    your quote refuting that obvious fact was, in fact, a snippet from an article on naturalism, something very different Viv

    You imply I am not familar with the source I cite without explicitly saying so, a neat rhetorical trick. However I have read Betley Hart's book and this was a quotation from it. The link was to a review of the book that includes the quote. What distinction do you make between naturalism and materialism?

    That's one of the most absurd things I have ever read. And it's wrong. Viv

    Argumentum ad lapidem. Thanks for your opinion, where's your evidence?

    It's little more than an attempt to undermine science by making the same mistake you did, mis-labeling what circular reasoning is and being far less than honest about what science is and how it works. Viv

    That may be the case or it may not. Once again you forgot to include any argument to accompany your assertion.

    How can science ever "show" that life doesn't come from God? slimboyfat
    Ooh, ooh! Strawman alert! Science doesn't seek to show that, nor was that in any way Cofty's point. Viv

    What Cofty said was:

    If theology says that life comes only from his [sic] and it turns out otherwise, that's an impact Cofty
    What is a "theological barrier"? Viv

    Ask Cofty, what he wrote was:

    On this understanding the efforts of scientists to see if life will emerge from geochemistry is an impossible task. It is not doomed to failure because it is too technically difficult, it is doomed because life comes only from the lifegiver. The barrier is theological not scientific. Cofty
    Oh my, you are accusing Cofty of doing EXACTLY what you are doing. This is what happens when you use pseudo-intellectualism and dishonesty to try to make a gap to wedge god in. SBF gets caught. Again. Viv

    I consider myself an agnostic. Lots of labelling there, not much (or anything) in the way orf argument or evidence.

    If only he didn't post in an intentionally obtuse manner, we might know what that position is. Viv

    I think the points I made were pretty straightforward.

    1. Cofty asked how theists might respond if scientists manage to demonstrate how life can arise from non-life. I pointed out that the view that scientific discoveries can tell us anything about God or his existence involves a particular philosophical stance and is not a given.

    2. I pointed out that the optimistic view some people have of science, that it will be able to answer ultimate questions, such as about God, at some time in the future, resembles the belief JWs have that the final truth about reality will be established at Armageddon. That looks like fantasy, or wishful thinking, in both cases.

    3. Cofty claimed that JWs teach scientists will never be able to create life from non-life because there is a "theological barrier" rather than a technical one. WT publications say the opposite, that scientists may be able to create life at some point in the future. For most people a quotation from the WT saying that scientists may create life at some point would be enough to convince them that's what the WT teaches. But not Cofty. A strange position for someone who claims to believe in facts.

    I don't see how any of these points are obscure or esoteric.





  • prologos
    prologos
    K99:--"The worst part is that then the discussion goes nowhere.

    If only somehow the objections could always be referenced to the bearing they have on the excellent theme that is discussed. Not many mind readers among us. The discussion prove though, that life started right to allow for such struggles for survival, intellectual monopoly that is. thank you just the same.

  • Viviane
    Viviane
    SBF seems to automatically want to introduce the philosophical whenever he sees Cofty present a position.

    Very true. However, philosophy is, at it's core, thinking about what we think, how we think about those things and why. It's a way to understand why we think what we do and see if there is a way to improve that. It's not mystical, it's not obfuscation, it's not even esoteric in the generic sense, it only becomes esoteric with the subject matter we are applying philosophy to is an esoteric subject matter. We could apply it to baking a cake, writing music or investigating the nature of reality.

    Interestingly, philosophy emphasizes critical thinking, reason, logic and rationality. It absolutely allows for assumptions, in fact it requires them in many cases. Having said that, as with everything, the proof of the pudding is in the eating of it. If the assumptions are demonstrably false or unprovable, then the end result of the thinking is either unprovable, wrong, or right for the wrong reasons.

    In this case, philosophy is being used as cudgel, not as a tool. Mixing up of materialism and naturalism, making statements about incorrect assumptions, using biased sources interested in proving a point (that themselves use bad logic and incorrect assumptions) as legs of the logic stool (let the reader use discernment) are absolutely the wrong way to go about philosophy.

    It reminds me of Mortimer J. Adler's book, "How to Think About God", in which he claimed he could absolutely use a philosophical argument to prove the existence of God, you know, allowing for multiple unprovable assumptions required to make his logic work and rejecting any argument that showed the flaws.

  • Viviane
    Viviane
    If you have evidence for the assertions you make why not include it in your post?

    I did, try reading.

    You imply I am not familar with the source I cite without explicitly saying so, a neat rhetorical trick. However I have read Betley Hart's book and this was a quotation from it. The link was to a review of the book that includes the quote. What distinction do you make between naturalism and materialism?

    I in no way implied that. If you felt the sting, it was one of your own making.

    They are different things. If you conflate them, you must separate them. Let me be clear, materialism is NOT naturalism. If you feel that they are the same, then it is up to you to make that argument. If you are unable to do so, then YOU show that YOU are unfamiliar with the material, not me.

    I consider myself an agnostic. Lots of labelling there, not much (or anything) in the way orf argument or evidence.

    Agnostic means "without knowledge". I agree that is an apt description.

    1. Cofty asked how theists might respond if scientists manage to demonstrate how life can arise from non-life. I pointed out that the view that scientific discoveries can tell us anything about God or his existence involves a particular philosophical stance and is not a given.

    Cofty never suggested it was. You made a strawman and then argued against it.

    2. I pointed out that the optimistic view some people have of science, that it will be able to answer ultimate questions, such as about God, at some time in the future, resembles the belief JWs have that the final truth about reality will be established at Armageddon. That looks like fantasy, or wishful thinking, in both cases.

    Ah, the "some people" argument. There's your problem. As was pointed out to you, science doesn't seek to answer questions about God. Your argument is with people that misunderstand science, it has nothing to do with Cofty's OP. Again, you are making a strawman and then arguing against it.

    3. Cofty claimed that JWs teach scientists will never be able to create life from non-life because there is a "theological barrier" rather than a technical one. WT publications say the opposite, that scientists may be able to create life at some point in the future. For most people a quotation from the WT saying that scientists may create life at some point would be enough to convince them that's what the WT teaches. But not Cofty. A strange position for someone who claims to believe in facts.

    And you're wrong again. the WT uses weasel words all over the place to hold 5 different views at once. Just because they say and teach one thing doesn't also mean they don't teach something else as well. As someone who is claiming to be versed in philosophy, strange that you wouldn't grasp that and know it.

    https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/g201501/origin-of-life/

    LIFE COMES ONLY FROM LIFE. “With you [God] is the source of life.”Psalm 36:9.

  • cofty
    cofty

    I refuse to waste any more time and energy on this thread. It is like trying to have an adult conversation with friends while a child runs around screaming "look at me everybody".

    I think it is a question I really want to pursue further so I will attempt to come at the same question again in a new thread - which of course SBF will shit on again and again forever and ever amen.

    SBF when I say you are dishonest and disingenuous I use those words very deliberately. If you ever do visit Lindisfarne I am only 5 minutes away. I will be out.

    Viv - Thank you for taking the time to try to sort out SBFs wilful twisting of facts. I appreciate it.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    You are correct that WT literature is often contradictory. But if it is contradictory in this case you've yet to show where. The WT says that scientists may one day create living cells from non-living matter. It also says that life comes from life and that God is the source of life. Since the scientists who may one day create life will themselves presumably be alive (just as women who give birth are also alive) I think you falsely accuse the WT of contradiction in this case.

    But let's be clear about what Cofty got wrong. He stated:

    As a JW and then a christian my belief was that life was something ethereal that belonged only to god... On this understanding the efforts of scientists to see if life will emerge from geochemistry is an impossible task. It is not doomed to failure because it is too technically difficult, it is doomed because life comes only from the lifegiver. The barrier is theological not scientific.

    Whereas the WT brochure states:

    Think of the challenge facing researchers who feel that life arose by chance... Ultimately, they hope to build all the parts needed to construct a "simple" cell.... If scientists ever did construct a cell, they would accomplish something truly amazing-but would they prove that the cell could be made by accident? If anything they would prove the very opposite, would they not?

    Any plain reading of the WT comments shows that Cofty has misunderstood what they teach. For most people a statement from the WT saying that scientists may one day create life from non-life would be enough to show that's what the WT teaches. If that's not evidence enough for you or Cofty I'm not sure what to say after that.

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