by pale.emperor 58 Replies latest watchtower bible
Vidiot said:
@ Heaven...
Did you see the thing (on TV or the net, can't remember which), where a guy put a Quran cover over a Bible, and started showing people the somewhat less-than-appealing Bible passages (I'm sure you can guess which).
Hey Vidiot, yes I have seen that or at least one version. It certainly illustrates many peoples' ignorance of the violence and abuse in the Bible. I think this was it?:
I think the real problem is that people can’t fess up to the fact that we are all just as violent and unjust as the other person. Religious people are notorious for acting pious while slaughtering and oppressing, but atheists are notorious for acting enlightened while doing the very same things.
Joseph Stalin, an atheist, is responsible for the mass murder of millions, which too often included religion as the target. A death toll of upwards of 20 to 50 million people or more is attributed to him and those that adopted his views.
In the name of atheism, Stalin had churches totally demolished, reducing them from some 50,000 when he took power to just a few hundred by the time his reign of terror ended. In his goal to eradicate religion he had tens of thousands of priests, nuns and other religious tortured and killed, systematically shooting over 100,000 of them in as little as two and a half years, during a period known as “The Great Terror” between 1936–1938. Also known as “The Great Purge,” Stalin targeted and slaughtered more than just the religious. He slaughtered political enemies, persecuted the poor classes, persecuting a total of some 8 million people, of whom a little more than 1 million perished.
Time will escape me and space would run out if I went on to mention the atrocities and oppression of women and homosexuals and the disabled and others by numerous other atheist “enlightened” persons and states: the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, Mengistu Haile Mariam of Ethiopia, Mao Zedong of the People’s Republic of China, etc.
Sure, the Bible says some very horrible things. And religious people have done and continue to do horrible, disgusting things in the name of a holy God, but atheists are no better. They claim enlightenment with hands just as bloodied in innocents.
I’ve been reading a lot on here, and I notice that too many have never shaken off the biggest lie from the Jehovah’s Witnesses: that belonging to something or to have a set of specific convictions or to adopt some school of thought somehow makes you smarter, special or even better than others. And others who do not share these new enlightened views of yours, well--they’re idiots! Let's make fun of them or at least tell others how stupid their way is, right? “I am now a [fill in the blank], and we are not like you others whose views bring hatred, violence, oppression, and death into the world.” Yeah, that’s the Watchtower talking.
You are not more enlightened and immune from being just as prejudiced, hateful, violent or even wrong as you were when a JW, even if you are a [fill in the blank] now. The set of convictions you now subscribe to did not stop others before you who had them from murdering and torturing and killing others. Whether you are religious or atheist, the history of your group is just as sick and twisted and bloodied as that of the other side.
It’s not the Bible or atheism or religion or what-have-you that causes horrible injustices and mass murder and prejudice. You do, because you’re a human. Your poop smelled when you were a Jehovah’s Witness, it stinks now that you left, and if you are religious your poop stinks as much as an atheist’s and vice versa. None of us is immune from being the next Stalin or starting the next Spanish Inquisition. Your religion or atheism can't save the world from you! If you think your new-found belief system or atheism or whatever is going to prevent you from doing this, think again. If it didn’t stop saints and popes and Stalin and Marx from doing wrong, it sure as hell ain’t gonna stop little ole you on this forum who thinks their poop don’t stink!
Don't blame a religion, a holy book or even being an atheist for the world's troubles. These things aren't to blame. They only get blamed for all the problems in the world by those who don't want the light to shine on themselves. Monsters prefer the shadows.
So what do you recommend Hiemere? We should all just give up, embrace our inevitable animalistic tendencies and not affiliate with anything? Would it please you to go back to the stone age or mid evil times? Surely you don't believe that every human organization is carnal and only looking out for its best interests do you? What are you doing to make the world a better place?
Bonsai,
I totally agree with those statements that much bad has been done in the name of religion and by those who promote the Bible. But it has also true that the same type of behavior has come from atheists and that gets rarely pointed out.
The idea is to show that we, human beings, screw things up. It isn't the Bible or even atheism that kills: people kill. You and I have that capacity. That doesn't mean we stop being atheists or religious, stop going to church or fighting to advance reason and science as a means to find answers.
What I am saying is that humans love to play the blame game: "The Bible is evil because of the Crusades and the pogroms and the Spanish Inquisition," says the atheist. "Atheism is evil because of the horrific mass murders of atheist states and governments that have unjustly slaughtered millions and millions," says the religious. Both think they are enlightened and blame things: the Bible, religion, atheism, communism.
These things don't cause violence or kill or commit genocide. Many church goers and atheists never do such things. If the Bible or atheism was the problem, then everyone who followed the Bible would kill and every atheist would slaughter. Not all do.
We are judging these things on the basis of those who did horrible things with the Bible and atheism. That's illogical. Orange juice is a great way to get your daily allowance of vitamin C, but you don't reject it because people have used it to make napalm (as it has been claimed). If you, the atheist, is gonna judge the Bible by the bad and stupid things people have done in its name, then you should be judged by the horrible things atheists like Stalin did. That's stupid! And every argument on this forum that does that shows how illogical everyone is being who has argued that way. I've noticed this forum is filled with these types of threads.
We have the capacity to use orange juice for food, but some of us use it for napalm. Stop blaming the orange juice. Oranges don't go around blowing people up. Humans do that. We like to blame the oranges (the Bible, religion, atheism, etc.), but we are the monsters. We don't like to admit that. It's always the Bible's fault, that religion's fault, those horrible atheists. No. It's just us.
But we don't have to be monsters. The first step in doing that is to stop blaming the oranges, not to avoid using them. They're good for you under normal circumstances.
As to what I am doing to make the world a better place? Would you like to call the AIDS foundation I 've been working with? I am also a part of the Catholic-Jewish dialogue and the Catholic fight to protect atheists who are being persecuted in various countries. I have been working for the World Parkinson Comference, and currently am a care giver for a family member with developmental problems. I worked for the UFMCC for four years, and just retired from being a translator for the deaf and worked as a Catholic catechist. You will have to excuse me, however, as I've recently developed narcolepsy with cataplexy and am slowing down as a result.
And you?
Heaven - "... I think this was it?"
The very one, thank you.
Hiemere, first of all, I want to commend you for all your efforts to make the world a better place. It must be so difficult to translate using sign language. I tried learning sign and quickly gave up.
I focus on what I can do in the classroom. I am constantly endeavoring to teach children the importance of our environment and its ever dwindling resources. I am part of a group that engages in rare butterfly conservation and protecting natural habitats from logging and misuse.
I would like to do more, but with kids and a full-time job - I do what I can.
Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao etc. didn't do what they did because they were atheists. They did what they did because they were evil people. You can't blame anything on atheism. You CAN blame a mountain load of the worlds problems on religion and the delusional, irresponsible, often times fanatical teachings that numerous religions promote.
Religion and atheism are not the same thing. Atheism is merely the absence of belief in something without verifiable, testable facts. In time. religion will stop stunting the growth of humanity and hopefully go the way of the Dodo.
Both think they are enlightened and blame things: the Bible, religion, atheism, communism. - Hiemere
The communism of Stalin was an irrational ideology in just the same way that all religions are irrational ideologies.
Check out the history of genetic research under Stalin for example. In 1948, genetics was officially declared "a bourgeois pseudoscience", more than 3,000 mainstream biologists were sent to prison, fired, or executed and scientific research in the field of genetics was effectively destroyed until the death of Stalin in 1953.
You are making a false comparison. When you can point to a dystopian society run on the principles of secular humanism, inspired by thinkers like Thomas Hobbes, Rene Descartes, Francis Bacon, Baruch Spinoza, David Hume etc then you will have a point.
Atheism is a necessary but not a sufficient condition of building a better world. It is an inevitable corollary of being rational.
@Cofty: "It (atheism) is an inevitable corollary of being rational."
Yes, Cofty, but what about all of those 'rice atheists"? How do you explain that?
Cofty, I made the exact same argument you are making in your post. That line you highlighted from what I wrote meant to highlight how irrational some claims to the contrary really are.
I also never claimed that religion was any form of rational thinking.
And I don't believe nor did I state that people need religion or that atheists make bad societies. I was arguing against those types of views.
I've only been on here a couple of days, but I get that sense that because of the experience many of you have had with the Jehovah's Witnesses, it has left a few common "scar," so to speak that appears in the reactions to what I've written.
While I can't say that everyone here is like this or that it is not understandable, it seems there is a type of "knee-jerk reaction," for lack of a better expression, to certain phrases. It is as if people skim to find something in a post, see a sentence, and project a certain view upon it at face value, ignoring everything else written and taking the statement out of its intended context...as if people are searching for anything that looks like it attacks their current newfound "truth" and feel this need to react with a defense.
Cofty, I wrote repeatedly that much good can come from things like atheism and that claims which pointed to things like the atrocities of Communism were irrational arguments against the good that atheism can bring. I was showing how people can take anything, like religion, atheism, even orange juice and make something bad from them. My argument was that just because people can make "napalm from orange juice" doesn't mean oranges are bad any more than the fact that Communism twisted atheism for its own diabolical uses. What Stalin did does not prove atheism itself is a bad or unenlightened way of life.
Read the whole posts, people.
HIemere,
In response to your statement about 'scars', etc.: I was out of the DarkTower for 20 years before joining any ex-dub site; I joined this one 3 years ago. I had no real presumptions about this site, as I had spent 2 decades living life to the full and not giving the DarkLords much thought. However, I was amazed at how many theists routinely made definitive statements that atheists were immoral, murderous, fornicators since they did not believe in god (not god, really but THEIR god).
I don't speak for the rest of the atheists, but THIS atheist grew tired very quickly of the theists (and when I say theists I mean Jah and Daddy's Lil' Monster (Jesus)) who made these statements. I always refute these ridiculous assertions and accusations with empirical evidence, but the theists don't like empirical evidence; it hurts their tiny little brains and their feelings.
So after posting irrefutable empirical evidence that clearly shows the more atheistic and secular an individual, state, nation or region the more likely they are functional, ethical and moral - and having theists ignore it and continue with their accusations - I push back with sarcasm and biting wit, including mocking and humiliation when necessary. Those tactics work; it shuts the theist the fuck up up for a while, at least until another one comes along in a few days and says the same things.
