by cmaymann 10 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Hellow
I am studying some material about Jehovah’s Witness – and I wonder why they think, that the 144.000 from Rev 7 should be in heaven, and the great multitude should be on earth. Can anyone give me some argument for this opinion?
Yours
Christian S Maymann
wt's argument is, that Rev 14, (the other text mentioning the 144k is Rev 7), says, that they are the ones that "follow Jesus wherever he goes". he went to heaven, therefore, , so must they.
by contrast the rest of the living do not go where Jesus went, so they must be on Earth.
These earthly folks are the 12 tribes of the Israel of God. confusing? yes wt writers are confused. conveniently.
7, 14, 14 4000, (12x12 000) , all very spiritual numbers in wt numerology, organisational perfection. in contrast,
The great multitude (who no man can number), wt tries anyway reporting tabulating every detail.
Thanks! - But in Rev 7i it says the the great multitude stand "Before the throne". The other passage that names thing "before the throne" is in heaven - so it looks like the multitude stand in heaven
so it looks like the multitude stand in heaven
cmm, good point, when wt writers formulated this slant, they wanted to differentiate themselves from the "snare & racket" religions. their argument?
the earth is the footstool that stands before the throne I guess.
The other point is of course, that the 12 tribes out of which the 144 000 come, are sealed out of, the 12 "earthly" tribes.
as a side note, wt has admitted that the supposed "Great Crowd" does not exist yet, since Rev 7 says that it "comes out of" the "great Tribulation, now a future event, it had started in 1914 in past failed wt doctrine iterations.
On what basis do Jehovah's Witnesses distinguish the 144,000 from the "Great Multitude"? Why do Jehovah's Witnesses believe the 144,000 and the “Great Crowd” are different groups?
NUMERICAL DIFFERENCE: The 144,000 is not a "great multitude which no man could number".
- Couldn't 144,000 be an ideal, spiritual number, perhaps symbolic of perfection?
The 144,000 must be literal because it is given in contrast to the innumerable number of "Great Multitude" members.
- But couldn't this contrast be one of perspective
(i.e. divine/human) rather than numerical literalness?
CLARIFICATION: You say the tribes are figurative. The number12,000 figurative
But the total number is literal. How can that be?
- How can you be consistent if you decide that in the same phrase, the
tribes and their numeration is spiritual but the total number is literal?
- Why couldn't both the tribes and their numbers be figurative?
- Doesn't this "suspiciously tidy sort of number seem much more
likely to be a symbol than a statistic"?.
("The Message of Revelation", p.80)
LOOKING AT THE NUMBER A LITTLE MORE CLOSELY:
How is God to numerically express the entire church down through history? When you apply Christ's mustard seed analogy to the "Kingdom of Heaven", and the promise to Abraham of an innumerable progeny, wouldn't you be dealing with a sizable group? How is God to give a definite total for such an innumerable multitude? Why couldn't it be by a number which no man could number,- ie. by a symbol- which stands for completion and perfect symmetry?
David Chilton, in his commentary on Revelation entitled, "Days of Vengeance" says
The number 144,000 is obviously symbolic: twelve (the number of Israel) squared, then multiplied by 1000 (ten and its multiples symbolizing many; cf. Deut. 1:11; Ps.50:10; 68:17; 84:10; 90:4). St. John pictures for us the ideal Israel, Israel as it was meant to be, in all its perfection, symmetry, and completeness." (p.206)
"SEALING DISTINCTION: The 144,000 are distinct because they are "sealed".
- But, if both groups are identical, wouldn't the "Great Crowd" be sealed by the Spirit also and there would no need to repeat this particular fact?
IS THERE BIBLICAL EVIDENCE SUPPORTING THAT THE 144,000 AND THE "GREAT MULTITUDE" ARE IDENTICAL?
John's Literary Device in Revelation: Hearing & then Seeing
There is support for the idea that the 144,000 and the "Great Crowd" are really the same group being described from two different perspectives, divine and human. John heard the (perfect) number; then he saw the actual group. This "hearing" then "seeing" sequencing is a literary device that Saint John uses frequently in Revelation to display his images from different viewpoints. David Chilton clearly demonstrates this pattern of hearing and seeing in :”Days of Vengeance:”
For example, in 1:10-13, St. John hears a Voice, then turns to see the Lord; in 5:5-6, he hears the Lion of Judah, then sees the Lamb; in 6:1-8, he hears a living creature say "Come!"- then sees the object of the creatures command. The same pattern appears in this chapter: St. John tells us, I heard the number of those who were sealed (v.4); then, after these things - after hearing the number of the redeemed - I looked, and behold a Great Multitude (v.9).
Both the 144,000 and the "Great Crowd") consist of members who are:
.....................................................................144,000............................................GREAT CROWD
a. From every kindred and nation............. 5:9.... ..............................................7:9
b. Servants of God.................................. 7:3................................................. 7:15
c. Divinely protected thru tribulation...... 9:4,5 /.................................................Acts 14:22 7:14
d. followers of the Lamb ................................14:4 ..................................................7:17
e. Redeemed ...................................................14:3.............................................. 7:14
f. Pure and Spotless .......................................14:4 .................................................7:13,14
g. Standing before the throne .......................14:1,3................................................ 7:9
h. Before the Lamb................................... 5:8 ......................................................7:9
i. In His temple (naos) ....................................11:1,2 7:15; .......................................11:19
j. Tenting/residing with God ...........................2Cor.6:16 ...........................................7:15
i. Dressed in white robes........................... 6:11 ....................................................7:9
j. Wearing robes that are washed.................. 22:14............................................... 7:14
h. A heavenly class...................................... 14:1; 4:1,2; ........................................19:1
i. Spirit begotten ................................................7:3 I ..............................................Jn. 5:1
"Especially beginning in 1935, when the identity of the "great multitude" or "great crowd" was clearly understood, large numbers of these began to manifest themselves. At first there were hundreds, then thousands, later hundreds of thousands, and now there are millions spread around the Globe. Gods infallible Word depicts this group as 'coming out of the great tribulation,' being survivors of it, living right on into God's New Order without ever having to die (Revelation 7:9,10,14; John 11:26) The early members of this group are now in their 60's or 70's or older. Jehovah did not allow the ingathering of this group to begin too soon. The "great crowed" including many of the earliest members thereof, will survive into the "new earth." Survival Into a New Earth p. 185 (emphasis mine) published January 1984
Thirty-seven years after publication and the GT hasn't even started yet. Babies born in 1935 are 86 years old today. The earliest members are now 146 years old or older. It is obvious that the bolded statement above failed to materialize and honest JW's (at least) would therefore have little choice but to admit that the, "Great Crowd" doctrine in it's current form is wrong and needs to be fixed.
NOT SURE WHERE THIS STUDY CAME FROM
After describing the enigmatic chorus of 144.000 Israelites, the apostle was shown an equally enigmatic “Great Multitude”:
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Revelations 7: 9: “After these, I looked, and behold, there was a great multitude…” |
The phrase: “great multitude”, is also found in Revelations 19: 1, where the Great Multitude appears to be up in the skies: “...I heard a loud noise, like that of a great multitude, from the sky”
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Revelations 7: 9: “...that nobody was able to count its number…” |
In Genesis 13: 16 God tells Abraham that his seed would become so profuse, that “if anyone could count the grains of sand on the earth, then shall your seed also be counted”. So, in the way that nobody could count the grains of sand on earth and the seed of Abraham, in the same way nobody could count the number of the Great Multitude. With this phrase (“that nobody could count”), Revelations is clearly indicating that the Great Multitude is referring to the seed of Abraham.
The “Witnesses” believe that the seed of Abraham numbers a mere 144.000 faithful; this is apparently the “spiritual Israel” that alone will go to heaven. But here we see that not only is the seed of Abraham not so few in number, but innumerable.
According also to Galatians 3: 29: “If you are of Christ, you are of the seed of Abraham, and … heirs”. If –therefore- you are not of Abraham’s seed and heir, you are not of Christ, YOU ARE NOT CHRISTIAN. Necessarily, the Great Multitude must be the seed of Abraham.
But the following verse also indicates that the heirs are saints and co-inheritors of the heavenly Kingdom, with Jesus Christ: Romans 8: 16,17: “Children and heirs. Heirs of God, and co-heirs with Christ”.
The Great Multitude therefore is the innumerable seed of Abraham, which co-inherits the heavenly kingdom with Jesus Christ.
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Revelations 7: 9: “...out of every nation and races and tongues…” |
“Witnesses” believe that only 144.000 are kings and priests of God. However, if we combine the above verse with Revelations 5: 9,10, we see that “those who were bought from every nation and peoples and tongues” are ”kings and priests”. Unlike the 144.000, who are described in Revelations as being Israelites. (Revelations 7: 4-8).
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Revelations 7: 9: “ ...who stood before the throne and the Lamb...” |
“Before” signifies “in front of”. God’s throne is in heaven; therefore, the Great Multitude must also be in heaven, if it is standing in front of God’s throne.
The word “before” is not intended metaphorically here, as used (for example) in the expression: “we now stand before God” , given that God is all-seeing. John here is describing a vision. He actually saw them standing in front of God, up there, in heaven. He was not using any metaphor, any figure of speech. But nobody can actually see us standing before God right now, since we said these words metaphorically. However, the verse we are studying begins with: “...I LOOKED, and behold, there was a great multitude...who stood BEFORE the throne…”
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Revelations 7 9: “… garbed in white robes…” Revelations 7: 14: “...they washed and whitened them, in the blood of the Lamb…” |
The “lamb” is Christ. In Isaiah 1: 18, we learn that one whitens oneself, when God forgives him his sins. : “Even if your sins are purple in color, they shall become white as the snow, and if they are red like vermilion, they shall become like bleached wool.”
The Great Multitude therefore is the multitude of those who will have been vindicated, through their faith in the sacrificed blood of Christ; and this is what is symbolized, by their pure white robes.
In Revelations 3: 5, it says: “The victor shall wear white garments." But who is a victor?
Revelations 2: 26: “.…the victor and whomsoever preserves my works to the end…”
Revelations 12: 11: “...and they defeated him (the devil) for the sake of the blood of Christ and for the reason of their testimony, and they did not favor their life, even to the death.”
The victor therefore is the one who defeats the devil to the end, remaining faithful to the blood of Christ, even to their death.
By connecting the above passages, it becomes clear that, for the Great Multitude to be wearing white robes, they must have become victors, to the end, to the death. But if the Great Multitude refers to victors, it is also going to receive the heavenly kingdom along with Christ, according to the following passages:
Revelations 2: 27, and 3: 21: “to the victor….. authority over nations”; “..to whomsoever is victorious…. power over the nations”; “whomsoever is victorious, I shall bestow to him to sit with me in my throne…”.
The great multitude therefore, is only a part of the church of the saints, for the kingdom of heaven.
This is also evident in Revelations 22: 14,15, where, in its ancient text, it says the following: “Blessed are the ones who have washed their robes, so that they can…enter through the gates of the city…...outside, are the dogs….and those who love and preserve deceit.”
In Revelations 21: 9,10, we are told that this city is the Church, the bride of Christ; in other words, the body of the Church who were to reign together with Him. Whomsoever is not a member of that church, is compared to a dog. Since, therefore, there is no Christian outside of it, and since the great multitude with their white robes enter into it, then the Church cannot be comprised of only 144.000 people; it is innumerable.
Another problem that the white robes pose in the dogma of the “Watchtower Witnesses” is the following: The “Witnesses” believe that the Great Multitude will be vindicated at the end of the Thousand-Year Kingdom which –according to them- will take place after the “Great Tribulation”.
But, if those of the Great Multitude “wear white robes, having come from the great tribulation”, it would mean that they are already vindicated, BEFORE THE MILLENNIUM! (Revelations 7: 14).
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Revelations 7: 13: “…one of the elders….. saying to me: These who are garbed in white robes - who are they, and where have they come from?” |
In Revelations 4: 4 and 7: 11, it is stated very clearly, that the 24 elders were standing “around the throne” of God, in heaven.
So, when the elder asked: “where did they come from?” it is positive proof that the Great Multitude CAME to him, there, IN HEAVEN.
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Revelations 7: 15: “...and they worshipped Him, day and night, inside His temple.” |
How can the Great Multitude be INSIDE the temple of God, if they were not priests?
In ancient Israel, only priests were permitted to enter the temple. Therefore, the Great Multitude is a hieratic (and consequently a heavenly) order, and the priests are not limited to only 144.000.
The Watchtower organization’s reply to the above comment, is the following assertion:
“The temple also has a courtyard. The Great Multitude therefore isn’t inside the temple, but outside, in the courtyard, therefore they don’t necessarily have to be priests!”
But the word “temple” in the Holy Bible ALWAYS SIGNIFIES THE TEMPLE BUILDING ONLY, as is evident in Revelations 1: 2: “the courtyard that is outside the temple you must cast out, and not count it”.
However, because the Watchtower is aware of this problem, it strives deceitfully to conceal it, by mutating (as it does habitually) the text of the Holy Bible in their own translation, and replacing the same verse with the following version: “as for the courtyard, however, which is outside (the sanctum) of the temple, you must leave it out, entirely…”
In total disrespect of the holy text, and in defiance of the warning in Revelation 22: 18, it adds the word: “sanctum”, in order to salvage its exposed dogma.
And where is the temple, inside of which the Great Multitude worship God as priests ?
Revelations 11: 19: “and the Temple of God which is in heaven opened up”. (Comments are redundant here…)
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Revelation 7: 15,16: “and the One seated on the throne shall camp over them… and God shall eliminate every tear from their eyes.” |
The Great Multitude is referred to with the same words, in the following passage also:
Revelations 21:2-4: “and I saw the renewed holy city of Jerusalem, descending from the sky….as a bride……behold, the tabernacle of God amongst the people, and He shall camp with them…and they shall become His people, and He, the Lord God, shall be with them as their God….and He shall eliminate every tear…”
The careful reader will realize that here, the Great Multitude is included in the tabernacle of God, the Church, which “descends from the sky”.
But even Paul the Apostle Paul came to agree that the Great Multitude are the “sons of God”, and consequently members of the Celestial Jerusalem, in Corinthians II, 6: 16-18: “as God had said, that: I shall inhabit with them, and I shall walk among them and I shall be their God and they shall be my people…and I shall be unto you as a father and you shall be unto Me as sons and daughters..”
The Great Multitude is present in many passages of Revelations, and always as a part of the celestial Jerusalem, the Church. There is not another order for heaven and another for earth, since the Church itself is the same one, that descends from the new heavens to the new earth.
This is exactly what confuses the “Witnesses”. They were not taught the simple, evangelical truth, that the saints do not only live in the “new heavens”, but also on the “new earth”. Hence, there is no need for two orders, but only one: that of the innumerable Church.
alternative theory:
a) the great Crowd are the 12 tribes out of which the 144 000 are sealed, the leftover.
b) The new jerusalem. the 14000 stones with 12 pearly gates come down from heaven too.
c) all the denouement of the talking snake story.
One WT book that states the reasons why the WT believes the 144,000 and great crowd are two different groups, with the latter having an earthly hope, is the book called "Then Is Finished The Mystery Of God". It is copyright 1969. It does not likely completely agree with the current WT teaching on the matter, but at least it will tell inquiring people what the WT taught on the matter from 1969 to around 1980. It encourages readers to read some specific WT books and articles from before the year 1935 and maybe that is part of the reason the book is not included in the WT Library CD-ROM, nor the WT's online library. A transcription of the book (apparently by a faithful JW) can be read online at http://www.strictlygenteel.co.uk/mystery/mysterytitles.html . I noticed there are some minor typographical errors in the transcription of the book, but that source is still very reliable. That source for the book includes the illustrations of the book.
During all of the years I was a JW I had very little to no interest in the book. It bored me immensely (and I think I had a very hard time understanding it when I was under the age of 10 and even as a teenager), but during the past 7 days I have been reading the book with interest. During the past seven days I have become increasingly fascinated by the book. Now I understand the WT's perspective and reasoning upon the chapters of Revelation that the book discusses, and as a result now I can see how many JWs could believe the WT's teachings on the subject. I am now impressed by how skillful the author of that book was stating his line of reasoning for the WT's doctrines pertain to the prophecy of the book of Revelation. However, despite that I disagree with a large number of the WT book's teachings. I am convinced that according to the book of Revelation, the great crowd during the 1,000 years are in heaven and serve in the temple building. That realization is one idea which caused me to stop believing that the JW religion is the one true Christian denomination of Christianity.
I once or twice owned a hard copy of the book and of the Babylon the Great book, but I later sold them because at the time I was unimpressed with them and I wanted to downsize my personal library of WT books. But, now I regret selling those two books. My interest in the books is not so such for what bits of truth they contain (and there are some truths in them, including some historical elements and including some correct interpretations of what various biblical passages are intended to mean), but for the insight they give me of the WT's reasoning in support of their doctrines which existed during the time from my preteen years of life through my years as a college student. Now I even find reading the "Then Is Finished The Mystery Of God" as entertaining, like reading a fiction novel.
The following is something which puzzles me. If Revelation teaches that the great crowd who comes out of the great tribulation will be in heaven, and even more so if it says they are the same group as the 144,000, then according to Revelation who will Christ and his co-rulers be ruling over? I don't think Revelation says they will be ruling over themselves (like in a pure democracy) for Revelation says they will rule over/upon the Earth. But, according to Revelation who will be on Earth (to be ruled over) during that time if the great crowd and the 144,000 are up in heaven? One chapter in Revelation says Satan will be in the abyss for 1,000 years so he can't mislead the nations any more, but an earlier chapter says that all the people who receive the mark of the beast will be slaughtered by the god's execution forces and it says that the beast will slaughter those who refuse to receive its mark. If someone knows (or thinks s/he knows) the answers to these questions, please provide those answers.
