JW prophets or not!!

by Zep 52 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  Friend

  Pathofthorns

  Why is our history not included in the study one undergoes before he is baptized?

  The question is, need it be included. Why didn’t each Christian Bible writer mention the selfish history of the 11 faithful apostles—each wanted to be the greatest in Jesus’ kingdom? Why didn’t each Christian Bible writer elaborate on the preposterous and erroneous belief that the Apostle John would never suffer death? Why? We could eat ourselves to death with that question. Again, the real question should be is it needed?

  The problem with answering that question is that there is no categorical answer, meaning that some will see it one way and others a different way. Even among potential baptismal candidates many will say that they are just no interested in the history as much as what we are doing today. On the other hand, I am not aware that the Society overtly hides facts of its history. Quite a few congregations have Society publications going back more than a century. The information is there for those interested.

  I feel that understanding that history is rather critical, though many I have tried sharing it with could have cared less. So, should that history be included as mandatory reading prior to baptism. I guess that question can only be answered authoritatively by yielding to what the scriptures indicate is necessary. Scripture indicates that Christians are only authorized to baptize disciples of Jesus. Therefore of necessity the only studying needed is that germane to the question of discipleship. Though sometimes in error on various subjects, I think that Jehovah’s Witnesses honestly try to make disciples of Jesus, rather then the Watch Tower Bible & Tract Society. In that case the history of the WTS is not necessarily corollary to baptism. Of course, as stated, others will have different views on that matter.

  …so there is no need to question what is printed in a Watchtower.

  Implicitly and explicitly the Society’s published comments are contrary to that notion. When Watchtower readers see Question From Readers articles where various teachings of the Society are questioned and subsequently altered, what message do you think that sends?

  Friend
• 

  waiting

  Friend,

  When Watchtower readers see Question From Readers articles where various teachings of the Society are questioned and subsequently altered, what message do you think that sends?

  For several years, I have been under the strong impression that at least some of these "Questions from Readers" are not real questions from readers - but a forum to present a slightly different aspect to a teaching. And if you sneeze - you'd miss the New Light.

  For example, I sneezed and totally misunderstood that I still could not vote in political elections - just a lot of qualifiying statements.

  Another time, I blinked and missed that Jesus was not my Mediator.

  The message the Watchtower Society sends by the Question from Readers section is one of openness - that is what they wish to portray - it is not necessarily a true message or portrayal. I think some of these are planted - but I am of suspicious nature.

  Somewhat like the long article bashing the Catholic Church for changing the No Eat Meat on Friday Doctrine. I was raised a Catholic - nobody cared that deeply - you either followed it or didn't. Only old people could get worked up over it. By the Society's quotes, the reader was given the impression that a good many Catholics got worked up over this - even devastated over the changes in their doctrine.

  Catholics have wanted to eat meat on Fridays as long as I've been old enough to eat burgers - and they knew it was just Church doctrine. The Society's articles were bogus and written to appeal to people who didn't know anything about Catholicism, IMO, enabling the Society make the Catholic Church look despicable for changing their doctrines.

  As for letting their history be known - yes they do - in a very limited way. That big green Jehovah's Witness book is an example of "softening history's edges." Poor old Russell - they don't know what to do with that man and his pyramids.

  A good example of "softening history's edges" is the pyramid teachings. I have never read too much about them - I have one of the old books with the pull-out chart. I knew that he taught about the belief in pyramids, (that's what the local JWs say - if pressed). When I finally figured out that that was a form of paganism, I shared this information with another sister - she was adament that it was not! It was the study of the pyramids.

  I asked her what she thought Russell studied about the pyramids. Well, the pyramid buildings.
  I told her about the charts in the book I found - but she would not discuss it any further, closed subject.

  There are so many examples of the Society helping us change our minds about JW history: vaccinations, organ transplants, rape teachings, 1975,......

  Of course the Society has written much - and it's there for all to see, if we choose. But who among us has the time? Most JWs trying to stay abreast with what the Society currently publishes will be inundated - there is just not enough time. Let alone time to research the tons of writing for over a century.

  As the Society famously said: It is not necessary for the local brothers to do research - we have a whole department at Bethel devoted to do the research for you. (not actual wording- but actual thought.)

  I really don't wish to argue the point, but the Society slants their history just like any other organization, religion or otherwise. When I studied at Roman Catholic History in HS, there was no mention of the Roman Inquisition nor the Spanish Inquisition. Nor the infamous fuedal system in Europe. Not much mentioned about the Dark Ages at all. St. Joan of Arc was nicely brought up - but the teacher failed to mention that the Catholics made her a saint after the Catholics had burned her at the stake.

  I am fast coming to the conclusion that the early 20th Century brothers were right with their body billboards "Religion is a snare and a racket."
  A truly prophetic statement about their own organization. Just another organized religion.

  waiting
• 

  waiting

  Friend,

  Perhaps a Freudian Slip?

  When Watchtower readers see Question From Readers articles where various teachings of the Society are questioned and subsequently altered, what message do you think that sends?

  subsequently altered?I've read about the Society doing that.

  waiting
• 

  Zep

  Friend:Implicitly and explicitly the Society’s published comments are contrary to that notion.
  ===========================================

  BAH BAH BAH!

  Friend:When Watchtower readers see Question From Readers articles where various teachings of the Society are questioned and subsequently altered , what message do you think that sends

  =============================================
  It says to me they are a pack of hypocrites for continuing to blatantly say both implicitly and explicitly to potential converts and their members that they have great authority and virtual infallibility!.I suppose people are just viewing what the WT is saying the wrong way, they are in error when they assume they are handing their lives over to Gods chosen?.Just like they took what the WT said in 1975 the wrong way too! its all their fault for misinterpreting things!.Afterall the GB arn't infallible, they only have the "TRUTH" and how great that is, what a joy, happy happy joy joy!

  CULT101 Friend!, thats the WT!

  Edited by - Zep on 10 July 2000 21:45:43
• 

  Zep

  Friend,

  propaganda= telling people what to think, contains extreme bias, deals in simplistic black and answers, sophistry, advertising, stereotyping, empty rhetoric is constantly being thrown at the reader like a mantra proclaiming how great things are!.

  If the WT wasn't so deceptive and was more like normal intellectuals they would actually try and directly rebut GTR and the rest!.This is a direct indication as to how deceptive and authoritarian they are!, they remain silent althrough, afraid of open dialogue with "worldly ones" & "apostates".They rewrite their history brilliantly in the mean time, thats another good indication as too the propaganda & authoritarian nature of the WT.

  A communist state would be proud to have the GB working for them, maybe even CNN!

  Another question Friend, does everyone smile as much at KH as they appear to do in the WT, i mean all those fake plastic smiles that everyone has in the Awake and WT magazines, thats not a true indication as too how happy people are at KH is it?.Are JW's really the "happiest people alive"?.
• 

  Zep

  ?

  Edited by - Zep on 10 July 2000 22:19:4
• 

  BitterTruth

  Hi Friend,

  The past and present "errors" of the Catholic Church is of no consequence nor concern to the God of "Israel", Jehovah, since they are NOT in a Covenant relationship with Him, and not recornized by Him as being in any Covenant relationship with Him...this is despite the foolish and constant claims of the WTS to the contrary.

  Why?

  We remember the WTS/ own definition of a bonifide "false prophet" which was:

  HE MUST PROPHESY IN THE NAME OF GOD...

  The Catholic Church, and other churches today of so-called "Christendom" then, DO NOT prophesy in the Name of God, as the WTS does.

  The WTS is the only one among religions today, that carries that NOBLE DISTINCTION...they are the ONLY ONES that does that.

  When they prophesy, they do it, IN GOD'S NAME! The others don't.

  Therefore, we have before us, the all-important prerequisite to become a bonifide, genuine "false prophet," in the eyes of Jehovah God.

  ARE YOU DOING IT IN HIS NAME?...That's what Jehovah God wants to know. And are you in a Covenant relationship with Him, WHILE DOING IT?...this too is of great concern to YHWH.

  And so, by the WTS' OWN DEFINITION, correctly identifying a "false prophet," as revealed in their printed material on the subject...can only point to them as being the genuine article, of a "false prophet."

  The passage at Deut. 18, then only applies to "prophet-like" individuals who are actively and knowingly in a Covenant-Relationship with the God of "Israel." They, and only they, are worthy of the DEATH PENATY before God. The "false prophet," the Covenant-breaking, False Prophet of God.

  This explains why Jesus only came to preach repentance to the "Lost sheep of the House of Israel." (Matt. 10:6) He did not go off to the other "nations" of the earth, to preach repentance...and talk of some many "false prophets" of the "nations," people who did not have, as of yet, a Covenant-relationship with Jehovah. They were not the "false prophets" of Jesus' time...it was the Pharisees, the Sadduccees, the ones who wore the "holy sign of dedication" upon their foreheads, with the NAME, YHWM upon themselves!

  These ones were in a Covenant relationship with God, carried his Name upon themselves, and yet, taught "commands of men" as "doctrines," ... so, Jesus denounced them for their wickedness. But, they did all of this, yes IN GOD'S NAME. And this angered Jehovah God. So, something had to be done about it. -- See Matt. 15:9

  So, then, the book of Deuteronomy and its laws, were not given to "nations" outside of that same said Covenant. Thus, that "Law" that pertains to the "false prophet," found in the 18th chapter, then, simply would not apply to them, from God' perspective, and so they are not LIABLE to the consequences and penalties described therein.

  The Catholic Church falls into the same category as described above...they worship Jesus as God, and not Jehovah. They do not recognize Jehovah as the True God, and ARE NOT recognized by Jehovah as being in any Covenant relationship with Him...and they never have been. Jehovah would never accept them, in their state of "trinitarian" beliefs. So, they are not liable...but "spiritual Israel" is...

  BT
• 

  BitterTruth

  (Post deleted)

  Edited by - BitterTruth on 11 July 2000 0:35:42
• 

  Friend

  Zep

  Re: Question From Readers articles and what they imply, you said,

  It says to me they are a pack of hypocrites for continuing to blatantly say both implicitly and explicitly to potential converts and their members that they have great authority and virtual infallibility!

  I see you gave up on your tactic of dismissing outright denials of infallibility. I see you have also somewhat given up on your fallacious anecdotal evidence. Ahhh, but we have not forgotten how to use that circular argument, have we, Zep.

  When you say, "It says to me…" just what does that do to evidence anything other than an opinion? All that represents is a very tight circle that says, "It must be this way because that is the way I see it." Even if you had numerous similar opinions at your disposal that would still be no more than anecdotal evidence, which is easily dismissed with contrary opinions. As is your pleading boils down to, "This is how I see it so it must be so." In this setting such a plea might get you somewhere, which makes it an argumentum ad populum. In circles that require sound reasoning your plea would be immediately dismissed—not that all participants here are seduced by unsound reason.

  CULT101 Friend!, thats the WT!

  Non causa pro causa

  propaganda= telling people what to think, contains extreme bias, deals in simplistic black and answers, sophistry, advertising, stereotyping, empty rhetoric is constantly being thrown at the reader like a mantra proclaiming how great things are!.

  Zep, please, anyone having the slightest bit of sense understands that propaganda is not inherently evil or bad. Propaganda can be a compilation of very factual and informative data. You will have to do better than that.

  If the WT wasn't so deceptive and was more like normal intellectuals they would actually try and directly rebut GTR and the rest!

  You will get no argument from me against the Society’s need to answer the fine work of Carl Olof Jonnson’s Gentile Times Reconsidered. That is one piece of fine work. Carl has amassed practically an invincible amount of evidence countering the Society’s 1914 chronology. On the other hand, the Society has never attributed to itself the normal characteristics of intellectuals. In fact they take pride in scoffing at the notion. In that case their more slippery disposition is somewhat understandable.

  Another question Friend, does everyone smile as much at KH as they appear to do in the WT, I mean all those fake plastic smiles that everyone has in the Awake and WT magazines, that’s not a true indication as too how happy people are at KH is it? Are JW's really the "happiest people alive"?

  I don’t know about JWs being the happiest people alive, but I can tell you that mainstream JWs do very much enjoy their community and the association that it brings. They also enjoy having a pretty clear hope for the future other than eventual and eternal nonexistence. I guess those two things combined would tend to allow for a good measure of joy in living.

  "Fake plastic smiles." There you go again with another fallacy, this time of presupposition.

  Really, Zep, you seem genuine enough. If you want to offer criticisms toward Watchtower theology then why don’t you spend some time analyzing your methods in order to create better and sound criticisms via sound argument. I am sure you can find some good web sites that can assist toward that end. Please don’t get mad at this messenger. I am just calling them as they are. I am not intending to hurl any insults your way nor am I intending to be condescending. Like you, I am just another human being on the path of life. We should be helping one another to learn and assisting to that end, that is my intent.

  BitterTruth

  Therefore, we have before us, the all-important prerequisite to become a bona fide, genuine "false prophet," in the eyes of Jehovah God.

  I have already said that the WTS has uttered false prophecy.

  The passage at Deut. 18….

  Consider the thread titled [url= http://discussion.witnesses.net/Forum2/HTML/000591.html]"The Changes in our beliefs"[/url] on witnesses.net’s Bible Research Discussion Forum. You will see that the text of Deuteronomy 18:20-22 has no real application toward Christians when it comes to judgment.

  Friend

  Edited by - Friend on 11 July 2000 9:23:33
• 

  BitterTruth

  Hi Friend,

  Here's the quote that needs to be considered...

  "...Jehovah’s Witnesses, in their eagerness for Jesus’ second coming, have suggested dates that turned out to be incorrect. Because of this, some have called them false prophets. Never in these instances, however, did they presume to originate predictions ‘IN THE NAME OF JEHOVAH.’ "

  This is the WTS' own definition of a "false prophet."

  So,

  Did the Catholic Church falsely, prophesy "In the Name of Jehovah?....did they really do this?"

  Further, is the Catholic Church in a Covenant-Relationship with Jehovah God...so as to be consider a "breaker" of that Deut. 18 Law?

  Do they recognize Jehovah as God, or Jesus?

  If Jesus is their "God," then, would we expect Jehovah to accept such an arrangement as a proper basis for a Covenant-relationship with Him?

  The Law of Deut. 18th chapter concerning "false prophets," was only given to a Covenant-Bound People, Israel, who recognized Jehovah as being their God...and God recognized them as being "his people."

  Thus, He gave them a "special Law" to obey.

  But this "Law," was NOT given to the other "nations," of varied beliefs. So it does not apply to them. Simple.

  Ask yourself:

  Did the Catholic Church falsely, prophesy "In the Name of Jehovah?" ...really...

  Or,

  Did the WTS falsely, prophesy "In the Name of Jehovah?"

  Which?

  BT