Did you consider Paul as false prophet?

by PeterNobody 15 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • PeterNobody

    Dear Brothers!
    You as a bible researchers, refused the catholicism, but still use the books which catholic church defined as the source of truth.
    Did you consider Paul as a false prophet? People are trying to make a gymnastics to explain what Paul said or what he was going to say.
    But many people don't see the following things:

    1) Paul has refused the Law, making a "blaspheming" in Gal 3,13: Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree. He didn't add the information in mentioned law that the person is cursed by God! What is not truth at all, as Jesus didn't break the law! Doesn't it look like Satan's missleading?

    2) if you consider we should say about his claiming in wider context - why don't you do the same with the Satan on the desert, wasn't he good when he offered to change the stones into the bread? - we also can state that Jesus was hungry, so his maybe "strange" "words" can be explained as "mercy", but Jesus showed that it was a temptation.
    as a paraphrase I can say: "If you are chosen by God you don't need the God's Law" - doesn't it look similar?

    3) Paul has closed God's mouths in Gal 1,8: But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

    who is accursing people who are listening to God's Words (the God's Law), and doesn't want them to listen to God?

    - in the Epistle to the Romans 7 we can find:

    "7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet."

    "8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead."

    He states that about God's Law!(As it's the 10 Commandments) He claims, knowing 10 commandments makes the people sinners! Those are Satan's words!

    Who could state like it's stated Romans 7,6: "But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."

    Who wants us to be lawless? How it matches to Isaiah 56, where the pagans who join the God's people should follow the law and holidays?

    4) He hasn't been mentioned as an Apostile neither in Luke Gospel, nor other Gospels, even (?) in the Revelation where the Churches were praised or scolded. I added the question mark intentionally, as he was mentioned there.

    5) Do you know any person who calls himself as apostile, but he wasn't mentioned in any other source than his own (the acts of apostles are from Paul's side), also in case of other letters, the authorship is questionable.

    6) As you know Paul was "Pharisee", but how could he be that person if he was a proselyte, but let's consider that he was a pharisee, so he should be very very familiar with the scripts, why does he state about the promise and the law as the two different things in Gal 3, if the Psalm 119 explains that promise is synonym for the God's Law.
    All God's Words are Laws! Paul tempts to skip God's Law mixing them together with Moses laws. He wants to blur it to easy refuse God's Law.

    In Isaiah 56, there is said - the people who are comming to God, should follow the Sabbaths (so the holidays) and LAW, the Isaiah script was the script Jesus has refered to, so it's confirmed as a good source of the Truth! Who you become if you folow the God's Holidays and God's Law?
    Moreover, as we know the last supper was the Passover Seder, and you as a bible readers know the God's Law - Book of exodus 12, 43-49, God didn't change it, so we should follow, but Paul says we don't need to.

    7) We know that Vicarius Christi can be translated as Anti Christus, due to the similar meaning of greek Anti and latin Vicar. If we know that and assume that the anti-christus is in synagogue of Satan, who could be the prophet of Satan who wants people to break the laws, and like it's said in Revelation 2,9: "I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan". Do you know any person who claim "they are jews", but they teach to not follow the laws? Epiphanius relates that some Ebionites alleged that Paul was a Greek who converted to Judaism in order to marry the daughter of a high priest of Israel, but apostatized when she rejected him, how this matches to the Revelation 2,9?

    8) Do you know any person who suggested to eat things sacrificed unto idols, like it is mentioned in Revelation 2,14: "But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.", how do you read this in context of 1 Corinthians 8 ?

    At the time, when Christian were about merge togehter with the Jewish people to make one God's nation (so it was before Paul's letters) - the reconstructed text of "The Ascents of James":

    (1) When the matter was at the point that they would come and be baptized, a certain hostile man, entering the temple at that time with a few men, began to shout and say,
    (2) "What are you doing, O men of Israel? Why are you so easily led away? Why are you led headlong by men who are most miserable and deceived by a magician?"
    (3) While he was saying these things and adding more to them, and as he was overcome by James the bishop, he began to incite the people and raise dissensions, so that the people could not hear those things which were being said.
    (4) Therefore he began to disturb everything by shouts, and to undo those things which had been arranged with much labor. At the same time he accused the priests, and inflamed them by revilings and reproaches, and like a madman incited everyone to murder, saying,
    (5) "What are you doing? Why are you stopping? O sluggish and idle ones, why do we not lay our hands on them and dismember them all?"
    (6) And when he had said these things, seizing a brand from the altar he began to murder.
    (7) Others also, when the saw him, were carried away by a similar madness.
    (8) There was loud shouting by all, the murderers and the murdered alike. Much blood flowed. There was a confused flight, during which that hostile man attacked James, and threw him down headlong from the top of the steps. As he believed him to be dead, he was not concerned to beat him further.

    (1) But our colleagues lifted him up, for they were both more in number and greater in strength than the others. But because of their fear of God, they allowed themselves to be slain by the few rather than slay others.
    (2) But when evening came the priests closed the temple. We returned to the house of James, and after passing the night there in prayer, we went down before the light to Jericho, about five thousand persons.
    (3) Then after about three days one of the brother s came to us from Gamaliel, of whom we spoke before. He brought secret news to us, that the hostile man had receive d authority from Caiaphas the high priest
    (4) to pursue all who believe in Jesus and travel to Damascus with his letters, so that there also by using the help of unbelievers he might bring ruin to the faithful. Another reason why he was especially hastening to Damascus was that he believed Peter
    had fled there.
    (5) About thirty days later he stopped while passing through Jericho to Damascus, when at that time we had gone out to the tombs of two of
    our brothers.
    (6) Each year these were whitewashed by themselves, a miracle by which the fury of many against us was held back, as they saw that we were held in memory by God.

    How do you think - who was that person? You can state that it was Paul of course, but he had a "miracle" as he claims, "Constantine the Great" had also "miracle", does it means that he was a source of God's word, but he also changed the dates and laws? And called himself as Vicar of Christ.

    Paul started splitting the Jews and the true Christians on the beginning murdering them, then his papers were used to make the Christians against the Jews. And Judean Christians said that the Paul was false apostile, that's why Ebionites were stigmatized by Romans who followed Paul's teachings as "Heretics".

    Based on Paul's letters a Church was created, and that church was responsible of killing the true Christians, who were "hungry of God's Words", God's words are synonyms of Law, like it's mentioned in Psalm 119.

    Paul started splitting us - the Christians - from Jews. He started killing the Judean Christians on Jewish side, then they have been killed by Paul's "Christians". And his claiming about Jesus as "magician" is also used by Jews, this splits Jews and Christians.
    In his letters he blures the good and evil, he removed the God's Law - those are the fruits of his teachings. You are bible researchers, verify the Pauls teaching against the Jesus teachings also against the God's words! Not Moses words, but Gods words! And please be careful to not make our God liar!

    Now it's the time to link back the God's nation, if you really seek the Truth, search in God's words, and verify everything after Jesus has confirmed and corrected the books those were at the time of Jesus our Messiah.

    Before sending this topic I asked God if I should say send it to you as Jehova witness is the first group I am contacting to, I tried to exclude my thoughts and I generated random bible verses and attach this below, this are not my words, not selected for this message:

    The 1st one:
    "Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord."

    And the 2nd one:
    "Ye shall observe to do therefore as the Lord your God hath commanded you: ye shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left. Ye shall walk in all the ways which the Lord your God hath commanded you, that ye may live, and that it may be well with you, and that ye may prolong your days in the land which ye shall possess."

    And the 3rd one:
    " And he said, Certainly I will be with thee"

    The psalm 119 I mentioned about the law, I also received from God when I was reading Paul's letter about promise and law. I didn't search for it, I have everything thanks God, as I am learning, but I trust in God.

    Satan is using bible to make us unsure, and lawless - that's why he used psalm 91 (used for exorcism) while he tempted the Lord Jesus. Demons are calling Jesus as Son of God and they believe in God, but it's not enough as you know.

    Now you will follow what you believe in, but The Kingdom of Heavens is comming and be prepared for that, I know that, because God is with me. I am the vineyard worker from late hours. I plant the Word and pull up the weeds.
    You are already searching God's will, do this properly, the direction is the same of all the nations!

    May God bless You all!


  • KalebOutWest
    You as a bible researchers, refused the [sic] catholicism, but still use the books which catholic church defined as the source of truth.

    I'm Jewish. We've been using the Bible long before there was a Catholic Church or Gentiles came into the picture, but...

    You may be confusing the Roman Catholic Church with Marcion of Sinope and his followers, the Marcionists. Jehovah's Witnesses have often been compared to Marcionists as have been several other of the NRMs that have come forth from the Second Great Awakening, notably the sister religion of the Watchtower religion, the Worldwide Church of God (now defunct).

    Roman Catholicism does not hold that Scripture is "the source of truth." In fact, it teaches (and always has) that Jesus Christ is "the source of truth." (CCC 2466) This was actually the reason for the controversy between Marcion of Sinope, his rejected canon, and the eventual canon of scriptures devised by the Catholic Church which would come to be called "the New Testament."

    Marcion was a bishop of the 2nd century C.E. whose father actually purchased his bishopric rights for him. It appears that Marcion though highly educated was far removed from the people he was supposed to serve, and due to his upbringing was focused upon making a name for himself in history. And that he did, altough it would become one of great infamy.

    Having a great love for the Hellenists, Marcion was obsessed with Greek mythology and religion. He began to see in the teachings of the Gnostics comparisons of "the select" who were granted special salvific divine status as possibly applicable to Jesus Christ. He devised a way to combine the two by rejecting everything that was not "Greek" about the Gospel, and creating a formula in which people could "learn" their way to salvific divine status, to become a "god" like Jesus.

    This entailed rejection of all that was Hebrew about the religion of Christianity, including the rejection of the Septuagint. Since by the 2nd century, Christians were already considering that Jesus was likely divine, Marcion began to teach the Jesus was simply one of the gnostic-like "demi-gods" of the select who reached this status via gnosis or special divine knowledge. This knowledge, however, was in the reach of some others if they applied themselves.

    Taking the writings of the apostle Paul, editing them for any mention of the Jews that favored them (this meant rejecting his letter to the Romans), and finding a gospel that was written by a gentile convert in Greek that he would claim was his own (that he edited as well), Marcion devised what he called was the "rule" (or in Greek kanon) for salvation. Anyone who studied it could expose themselves to the proper knowledge that led them to become like the demi-god, Jesus.

    Marcion gained followers and felt his place in history and the Church was now solidified. He felt all he had to do now was go to Rome to show the Pope what he had done. But upon arrival it is reported that Marcion was "surprised" when he found himself excommunicated for his efforts.

    Apparently he had been warned along the way to stop his work but would not listen. Gnosticism had been the Church's greatest threat. And while the Church treasured the Scriptures, it never viewed salvation as based upon one's study of them. Some people could not read as many people in the world were still illiterate in those days. Salvation, the Church taught, was katholicos or universal (where we get the word "Catholic" from today). Any person can be saved whether they read the gospel for themselves from the Bible, hear it preached from a sermon or learn it from another Christian who teaches it to them personally. One isn't saved via contact with the Scriptures, no matter how holy these texts are. People are saved, the Church teaches, via Jesus.

    To stop the Marcionist threat, the Church studied the spreading problem as copies of Marcion's canon were growing. It appeared that Marcion had merely copied the gospel of Luke and claimed it as his own, minus the first two chapters (because they are very "Jewish"). And spending about almost 200 years of study and discussion with the churches around the world regarding what was being used during the liturgy, the New Testament was eventually (albeit slowly) canonized. It was not the basis for the faith, but the standard for what was Scripture for the Christians to counter the Marcionist movement.

    If you notice, it is heavy with Pauline writings and includes a non-apostolic gospel, that of Luke. This is due to Marcion since his Bible used only the works of Paul and stole that singular gospel. Marcion claimed Paul was anti-Jewish. So the Church proved that he was not by using Paul's best work, especially Romans to counter Marcion. Romans even begins the Pauline library if you notice, and in it Paul teaches that despite the fact that the Jews rejected Christ, the covenant is still intact and that somehow, in the end, the Jews will still be saved.

    Luke, even though not one of the apostles, is a witness to Jesus as a gospel writer. He even writes the only history of the apostles in the canon. This is likely to counter the claims of Marcion. Luke is likely a Gentile convert to Judaism. Marcion claimed he wrote the gospel of Luke and that Judaism was rejected by Jesus and unnecessary. But if you replace in the portions of this gospel that Marcion removed (chapters 1 & 2), they are some of the most Old Testament-sounding pieces found in the whole New Testament. Mary and others sing in canticle form to the Lord in Hebrew style and the Temple is described in detail. In both Luke and in Acts it is demonstrated that Luke and Paul obviously worshipped in the Temple regularly, a point Marcion would not have other know.

    Except for groups like the Jehovah's Witnesses and a few other rare Fundamentalists that may be labeled as cults as well, most Christians, even Sola Scripturians, do not rely solely on Scripture alone. Much Tradition lies at the center of their faith. The creation of the canon, for instance, is Tradition, and belief in it as a Standard is outside of the Bible's scriptural reach as there are no Bible texts that tell us what books should be in the Bible and what should be excluded, or that there should even be a divine library in the first place.

    But one thing is clear: Catholics do not teach that the Bible is the source of salvation. If they did, the Protestant Reformation never would have occurred.

  • a watcher
    a watcher


  • Touchofgrey

    Since Paul's letters preceded the four anonymous gospels by a few decades, it is thought that he started the Christian cult .

    Professor James Tabor a biblical scholar of Judaism and early christianity has written books and YouTube lectures about Paul's involvement in the movement. Well worth a consideration.

  • PeterNobody
    Since Paul's letters preceded the four anonymous gospels by a few decades, it is thought that he started the Christian cult ."

    Christianity as a separate religion, yes, it's started by Paul, but Christianity as the people who believe in Jesus as the Messiah (greek: Christos), not.

    The Gospels you state were after Paul's letters, so based on your statement they should include Paul already, but please show where in the Gospels can you find the Paul, such important person? He should be there. Moreover Luke, the Evangelist who is said to be his student, he "forgot" to add the information about Paul the Apostle in the Gospel, but he describe there what happened with the rest of Apostles after Jesus death - how could this happen?
  • Vidiot
    “Did you consider Paul a false prophet?”

    Meh, no more than any other.

    Bit more of a dick, though. 😏

  • KalebOutWest

    PeterNobody is sending me PMs smacking of antisemitic nonsense. Beware of this idiot.

  • Phizzy

    Thanks K.O.W for the warning, and for your excellent Post above, and your Posts on other Threads, your Post about Marcion filled in details for me I was not aware of, thanks.

    As for the Thread Title, Paul was a failed prophet, he predicted the resurrection etc, would come in the lifetimes of his readers, it didn't, so later Works, like 2nd Thessalonians, were written to excuse this error, and to somewhat obliquely discredit Paul.

    My view is that Paul's Theology/Christology is very much his own, and the voice in his head persuaded him to believe that the claims of some 1st Century BCE "Christians", those who thought they had found a Messiah (Christ), and that their chosen individual had been resurrected, were true.

    The other Christian Groups of the late 1st Century BCE and those of the !st Century C.E may well have had a Christ different to Pau's, hence maybe why he was not impressed by any Teaching he found in Jerusalem, he just didn't want trouble from them as he took his Gospel and his Christ to the Gentiles.

    The later Mythos that we find in the Gospels is a very different Christ to Paul's.

  • PeterNobody

    He said the Jews are only Jews who are in a blood line, when I said that we should follow the Jews traditions in meaning Judaism as well as believe in Jesus.
    Please take a look the last message I replied when he got furious.

    For his message:
    "I am an exJW. Being Jewish is just who you're born to. I was born to Jewish parents, but unlike Christianity it is not a religion. It is a culture and a people. There is a religion that is connected to it because we are an ancient society that stretches back for thousands of years, but we are not a religious group. That is why there are atheist and agnostic Jews. The religious ideas, like you mention, are held by only a minority of Jewish people, around 40% as either true or possible. Out of those only about 30% or less hold to the concept of a personal messiah as it is post-biblical."

    I replied:

    "The English term Jew is originally derived from the Hebrew term Yehudi ( lit. 'of Judah'), which passed into Greek as Ioudaios and into Latin as Iudaeus, in turn evolving into the Old French term giu after the letter "d" was dropped. I use the term people Yehudi for the people who lived in Yudah, those who came from the Yudah tribe, as well as in the context of the people who believe in Yeshua HaNatzri VeMelech HaYehudi, if you believe in Messiah, and take Jeshua as Your King (Melech), you became a part of His people, the people of Yudah. And it doesn't mean you need to have the Abraham blood my friend, I said what I said, you believe in what you want to believe.

    You have your own bill, I sent the information, the people who read it, may or may not use it, it's their own choice. There is already answer that missleads, but I sent the information for people's heart, not expecting the answer, because I know the answer my friend, like I said God is with me My friend. May God bless You"

    So as you can see, I said about the meaning of INRI - Iesus Nazarenus, Rex Iudaeorum - Jesus Nazarene, King of Jews.
    And He got furious, and now I am called as anti-semit, but let your heart answer if I am.
    Personally I love Jews and their Messiah, I took Him as my Messiah.
    I respect both people of Judea from blood line, as well as converts to judaism, Jews who are Christians etc.

  • PeterNobody

    For your private request, I am answering in public.

    "I am a practicing Jew. I speak Hebrew. Do you? Why are you teaching me Hebrew? English is not my first language. I teach religion and have done so professionally for not only Jews but Christians for over 20 years. I am a liturgy and manuscript specialist. If you have anything further to add, address me in the public forum. I will be publishing everything you send me privately out in public anyway. You are making a fool of yourself."

    My answer:
    I studied biblical studies, I study bible in Hebrew, Aramaic, now translating the Syriac Peshitta, I am in touch with the best biblical researchers.
    But this means nothing in comparing that God is with me, and I don't mean I have my imaginated God, but I receive answers from Him in both dreams, thoughs as well as physical.
    Everything has started when I wasn't a believer, and received information information in dream - God has chosen me. Then I didn't know what I should believe in, but it grew over the time, some time later I asked God if I should believe in Jesus, a couple of hours later I received an ice sign of IHS, what is called as a symbol of Jesus (attached below).
    I haven't talked with somebody who could make it, also my family hasn't been practising christians, they didn't care.
    I received a lot of answers from God, and I am grateful for that.
    Here I closed the subject on my side, you have own will, own decisions, own life, you decide what you want or not want to believe.
    You all may take me as an "idiot" like you called me, I don't really care, I said what I said, I don't say it in way to gain your respect. I try to speak what I really believe, not to fit your "expectations".
    I dont look for an attention, that's why I am anonymous.

    And the random generated quote from bible for you - to exclude my thoughts, was the quote:

    "For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him."

    May God bless You All.

    Just an example of the answers, when I asked if I should believe in Jesus or not :

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