Why does God allow animals to suffer? Does God care about animals? What does the Watchtower teach about this?

by defender of truth 36 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • defender of truth
    defender of truth
    because both men and animals are eternal beings, suffering is our lot in life. It is because of the free agency of man and the limitations God has placed on Himself while we murder and enslave each other.

    Most religions use this excuse.

    Animals did not sin, they have done nothing wrong.

    They do not benefit or learn from their suffering and death in any way, do they?

    You admit they experience emotions, and yet they don't have the intelligence that we do to read a holy book and find comfort and understanding of why they suffer, as many people do from their beliefs.

    They cannot even ask for help when they need it.

    Their suffering is unjustifiable.

    I notice that you have not provided a Scripture to show that 'Christ suffered for animals'... the Bible only speaks of him suffering for mankind, doesn't it? He cared so much about animals that he gave some demons his permission to drown 2000 pigs...

    God, if he exists, limits himself from protecting animals from suffering? Why would he do that?

    Humanity has had to hunt animals to survive at times.

    According to the Watchtower, God told animals to start killing each other after the Flood.

    According to the fossil record, animals have been killing each other for millions of years.

    So animals have been killing each other, by Gods design. Also, man has been killing and mistreating them, with Gods permission?

    If you believe the Bible, God deliberately killed animals needlessly, on multiple occasions. God has joined in with humanity on that account, except he didn't even need the animals that he killed for food or clothing as we have done in the past.

    Please provide any evidence you have to show God cares about animals.

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel
    Animals did not sin, they have done nothing wrong.

    You raise some outstanding points. In the same way, though, infants have done nothing wrong, nor have they sinned. One can argue that they learn nothing from their suffering and that's a valid point as well, but in the end we simply don't know what people or animals gain from life on Earth. My own personal belief is that in the beginning, a plan was formed, we agreed to it, the Earth was created, man fell purposely because he could not attain to the glory of God in the state he was placed in the Garden. This is something the Orthodox Church has repeatedly addressed. In short, as Father Kallistos Ware stated in his book, The Orthodox Way, "[God] became what we are, so as to make us what he is." (Page 97) He asks, "Should we look behind the fall and see God's act of becoming man as the fulfillment of man's true destiny?" And he states, "The Incarnation, then, is not simply a way of undoing the effects of original sin, but it is an essential stage upon man's journey from the divine image to the divine likeness." And while the Jehovah's Witnesses say only 144,000 receive this potential, other religions don't buy it.

    They do not benefit or learn from their suffering and death in any way, do they?

    We don't know, but if God is just and merciful, I'd say yes, absolutely. Not everything has been revealed, but as you noted, what a horrible injustice it would be be to create animals, make them suffer and require their very existence from them, then treat them as non-entitities, never to be seen or heard from again. Wouldn't it make more sense to create them as artificial intelligence, to mimic pain, suffering, love, affection and so forth? That way they wouldn't suffer at all. We would simply think they had suffered. Of course I don't believe that at all, but it would be better to do that than to make these creatures actual sentient beings, cause them pain, untold suffering, give them awareness and then discard them. How would this make God any less of a monster than ISIS? (A captured Jordanian pilot is put in a cage and burned to death by terrorists. But many Christians who condemned ISIS for this horrible deed had no trouble believing that this unfortunate Muslim pilot just kept right on burning in Hell because he was not a Christian. If true, God would be more of a monster than ISIS because his suffering would be eternal.)

    You admit they experience emotions, and yet they don't have the intelligence that we do to read a holy book and find comfort and understanding of why they suffer, as many people do from their beliefs.

    Yes, but there are many people who lack that same ability. We also don't need to understand these things in our own lives, either, because we either don't understand or believe our own holy books. Most of my own beliefs in this matter don't come from the Bible but from other scriptures you don't believe in. Some here don't believe in any holy book at all, but believe that all suffering is horrible and meaningless -- and that if there is a God, then He is heartless and a monster.

    For years I've suffered from a bicycle accident that happened back in 2001. Every day I'm on painkillers, but I worked for NIH at the time, so I knew a lot of doctors. One day I asked one of them at the Pain and Palliative Care unit how people back in the 1800s dealt with such issues. He didn't say a word. He just turned his hand into a mug and tipped up to his lips as though drinking. Then he turned the mug into a pistol and pointed his finger at his temple and clicked his thumb. So personally I have to think there's a reason for suffering or there would be no reason for me to live. But I wouldn't needlessly addict suffering on any person or animal if I didn't think there was a purpose. If I did it, I would be a monster. And if God did it, He would be a monster. But I don't believe God is a monster.

    They cannot even ask for help when they need it.

    Not true. Most people with pets, most farmers with cattle, know animals can ask for help. My cat got very sick last year and I could tell by the way he acted and sounded that he was in pain and distress. This was reinforced when I brought up his cat carrier and he got right into it instead of heading in the opposite direction. He knows the carrier is for vet visits and, somehow, that it has something to do with his health. He came close to dying, but they saved him. Now the cat wants no part of the carrier.

    Their suffering is unjustifiable.

    But is that for us to decide? Either God exists or He doesn't. If He doesn't, man is simply engaging in polemics. If one is a Christian, one usually concedes that man doesn't have the whole picture -- that God has a more complete understanding than man. If religion is a sham, then man has the only picture, in which case not only is the pain and suffering of animals cruel and meaningless, the pain and suffering of all living creatures is cruel and meaningless. And if they're correct about there being no God, it becomes a situation of our not being able to do anything about it.

  • cofty
    cofty

    Witnessing the obfuscation of Christian apologists is the strongest defense against the faith virus.

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel

    Your problem, Cofty, is you're a drive by, hit and run prevaricator. You're all form and no substance. When it comes to evolution you copy, paste and drone on forever. When it comes to religion, you merely attempt to bully and move on.

  • smiddy
    smiddy

    Sea creatures have always survived eating other sea creatures long before Adam ,Eve and sin entered into the world.

    Alll land animals were destroyed in the flood except what was preserved in the Ark.

    The multitudes of life that existed in the oceans were never destroyed during the flood .They were not condemned.

    What did God have against land animals that he wiped all of them out bar Ark survivors and never took any action against sea creatures ?

    I hate to see animals suffer for any reason,I was devastated when I had to put my toy poodle dog of 16.5 years down as I was of putting my cat of about 15 years down ,I cried and was heartbroken over these deaths.

    Why do they suffer cancer arthritis brain tumours etc.etc IF their was a God.

    And for that matter why was Abels sacrifice more acceptable to God than Cains because Abel slaughtered an animal , in my mind Cains sacrifice was more acceptable because it was the fruit of his labour.a grain offering.

  • cofty
    cofty
    When it comes to evolution you copy, paste and drone on forever

    I never copy- paste.

    Your Mormon dogma that every animal has a pre-existing spirit is nothing but a bald assertion. It is asserted without evidence and therefore can be dismissed without evidence.

  • defender of truth
    defender of truth

    "in the end we simply don't know what people or animals gain from life on Earth."

    All available evidence suggests that animals gain nothing. They suffer, then die. That's it. God doesn't prevent their suffering, despite having limitless power.

    By the way, this topic is about animal suffering, but you keep diverting onto humans.

    "..as you noted, what a horrible injustice it would be be to create animals, make them suffer and require their very existence from them, then treat them as non-entitities, never to be seen or heard from again."

    Exactly. That was the whole point of my article. Why so many Jehovah's Witnesses, (who preach about a loving God) ignore this injustice, is beyond me.

    "So personally I have to think there's a reason for suffering or there would be no reason for me to live."

    Making up a reason with no basis may make you feel better. It doesn't address any of the issues about animal suffering that I have raised.

    "But I wouldn't needlessly [inflict] suffering on any person or animal if I didn't think there was a purpose. If I did it, I would be a monster. And if God did it, He would be a monster. "

    The God of the Bible has needlessly inflicted suffering. Read the Bible.

    "Most people with pets, most farmers with cattle, know animals can ask for help."

    Most wild animals cannot ask for help.

    If they did, nobody is there to protect them...

    Think about what I am saying.

    "If one is a Christian, one usually concedes that man doesn't have the whole picture"

    That is just avoiding the issues. Avoiding the contradictions in your own belief in a loving God.

    I don't believe in the Bible as being divinely inspired.

    But I must ask for scriptures or some form of evidence, otherwise the discussion is simply swapping baseless assertions.

  • defender of truth
    defender of truth

    I'm leaving the site now. I hope this article will be read and used by someone.

    Goodbye all.

    (Thanks for the discussion Cold Steel, please reply to my points when you have time. Please do stay on topic, though.)

  • Vidiot
    Vidiot
    cofty - "Witnessing the obfuscation of Christian apologists is the strongest defense against the faith virus."

    Yup.

    Realizing that creationists used circular reasoning, semantic loopholes, and misquoting was a huge deal for me.

    One again, for the newbies, lurkers, and trolls...

    ...if you have to cheat to defend your beliefs, your beliefs don't deserve to be defended.

  • defender of truth
    defender of truth

    My apologies.

    Looking back at the post, i just realised I forgot to include a link to the original jwfacts article.

    http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/blog/animals-suffering.php

    It's much quicker to read. ;)

    Thanks to all who replied.

    Also thanks to Cofty for linking to this OP in his recent thread.

    Goodbye.

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