gcc2k I apologize, please accept- james
I would like to apologize for coming off so hard on you. I really fell into doing what i have often told others not to do and that is to dog a new person on the net- sometimes one gets carried away esp after one has done the level of research on the org that myself and many many many others have done
so sometime when a person like yourself comes on the net and makes a comment about the org, that WE KNOW IS NOT TRUE - instead of helping you or anyone else to see where we got our info and and more importantly allowing a person to DIGEST this info
i recall for myself how hard it was being a former elder and bethelite it was to accept that certain men i know personlly at bethel can stand before others and teach the things that we do
you mentioned THE GENERATION DOGMA CHANGE- for me this was what caused me to take stock in what i have been taught
i used to give a public talk as 25, 30, 35 yr old man and there was this little part in the talk were i use to interject the comment "THAT I WILL NEVER GROW OLD IN THIS SYSTEM"
I used to slow my talk down and highlight the FACT that i could say that because bro you and i can put our COMPLETE CONFIDENCE IN Jah word and Org. In fact for anyone who has every seen me do this talk knows that i used to hold up AS PROOF the May 15, 1984 WT- on the cover is the article
THE GENERATION OF 1914 THAT WILL NOT DIE OFF-
i recall this mag so well cause i was at bethel serving in a congregation up in Harlem which is like the World Capital of Black folks- smile I recall the mag cause so many of the pioneers got BLASTED for the cover- many jw doing street work carry little plastic sleevs to put mags in so as they approach a person - they can see the latest mag- well on the cover was 12-15 OLD WHITE BETHELITES and NO BLACKS------------ representing the 1914 gen and the Black Muslium from the Nation of Isslam WENT OFF- dogging us for working for the White Man- smile
and till this day i will never forget this mag for it's CONTENT AND COVER
WHAT HURt ME the most was the FACT that as far back as 1979 the Writing Dept/GBs knew that there was NO SCRIPTURAL BASIS for that doctrine , yet you and i contined to preach and stand before 10's of 1000's like i did at conventions centers and reassure the jw who quit their jobs or like myself gave up college ( did you know i would have graduated with Micheal Jordan from UNC the same year on an engineering scholarship) i turned it down to go to bethel instead- gave up kids, retirement,. and so many life joys we put off- believing that due to such a shorttime IT WOULD BE ALL WORTH IT
I used to commend folks, i used to be commended for making such choices BASED ON THIS BIBLE BASED DOGMA
and now to find out that it was all a lie, is sad- so at that point i started to look into things, coming on the net much like you - i was a dyed in the wool SOCIETY MAN- all the bro in my circuit knew me for one phrase i used all the time when an issue came up"
"What does the Slave say in Print?"-
this was a phrase that many young black bro were taught at bethel by 3 of the most important black men at bethel - JR Brown(PR spokesman), RP Johnson (WT troubleshooter) Leon Weaver ( Mega Heavy in the Service Dept) when i was there--
the reason was if you were challenging a white bro, this is the only way you could win --to INVOKE the Slave as your basis- JUST SOME BEHIND THE SCENE INFO--
at any rate-- this "One issue" started me to look at the formation and basis for other doctrines
and what i found was heart breaking,
i read of many folks exp here on the net and they talk about how badly they were treated by elders, co and other jw- THAT WAS NOT THE CASE FOR ME
I was well treated and loved, i was part of the congo "In crowd"- we had 5 former bethelites on the body of elders, we had a former Bethelite/Missionary/ Branch committe member- who is a CORP voting MEMBER of the WT Corp--he goes to NY each first week of OCT to vote,
as a result we were always teaming with Bethel speakers and heavy weights- so my wife and I were on the fast track CO work was within our grasp, we were always being told- get on the Pioneer list so I can submit your name James is what the CO would say - in fact most of our CO were FORMER BETHELITES-
so when they came to visit everyone knew the gathering to be invited to was the one with all the elders/co and heavy boys-
well my wife and i tried to include the fatherless boys , single women, and single parents in many functions and gatherings and we would get dogged WHY ARE THEY HERE????
AND FOR me it was a child hood dream, you see my mom was a black woman with 4 kids and no husbands, we found out about the gatherings on SUNDAY , we never got invited, my mom was a fine looking woman and many of the elders wives thought my mom was after THEIR MAN-
WELL the org told single parent women to go to the elders with issues since they had no spiritual head, yet my dad was a hard working man- he was discounted cause he thought it was stupid to use EVERY SINGLE SAT FOR CHURCH STUFF and then do more church stuff on sunday-
So i vowed that if i ever became an elder i would include all those who got cut short in the congo
so my wife and i would take 5-10 folks with us when i gave talks outside the hall
many would tell us they have been jw for 30yrs and was NEVER INVITED BY AN ELDER to go visit another hall-
my point being ----------for me it was not mistreat that cause me to reexamine things
i was strictly a DOCTRINE MAN- it was either supported by the bible or the boys in writing were making it up as they went along and the more i read the more i saw stuff literally just being made up
i was told by the old timer on the net to just ask the question:
"Does this look like something that god would direct to be given as instructions, not only to jw, but since we preach to ALL OF MANKIND"
and i kept on coming up with no as an answer-
case in point - to df a woman because she divorced her husband for Fu#king the Dog was a violation of gods divine will-
does that sound like a dogma backed up by god??
so i commend you for at least being brave enought to share with us your very personall exp of seeking professional help-
it almost is sad to think that you can tell us here about your situation and we will not judge you while if this same information was known in your hall - it would be viewed as a sign of you being spirituall weak- how sad
i wish you will my friend you have come to the right place, THE NET "THANG"
sO PLEASE ACCEPT MY COMING OFF SO HARD- i can't speak for others, each must do that themselves- in the past i have often dogged former jw for being to hard on new persons , literally scaring folks away, and yet i find myself at times doing what i condemn-
I'm sorry and i apologize
i will say this --once you have educated yourself on WHAT AND WHY we have believed the things we have
you will find a freedom that words can't describe-
i recall being the SEC in my hall and having to listen to old friends cry on the phone cause all they had was 1 hour of time-
to think that we have a god who requires folks 85yrs old to feel guilty after serving him for 70yrs just because they could not GET THE NATIONAL AVG in field service is sad-
CONTINUE TO READ READ READ
The Freedom to Think means:
"I'd rather have Questions that I can't Answer ----Than Questions, I can't Ask.
(or Answers that I can't Question)."
Thank you for your public apology JT. Thanks also for sharing some of your experience. I won't make any comment on the racial issues (which I guess I didn't know existed, but I could see that happening).
The professional help I sought had little to do with religion, though I think that was a small factor in the problems I was facing.
I applaud the efforts to uncover the dirt on the WTBTS so people can judge for themselves whether or not this is God's organization (for those who care to believe such a thing). My challenge to those of you who do this is to be 100% honest and accurate with the information you provide. In the mind of the JW, there is no room for innuendo, implications, or rationalizations. There is only black and white, good and evil, right and wrong. So, if you are trying to gain an audience there, it is important, as I said on the BB/Silentlambs/CBS thread, to be untouchable. Yes, a media bite about absolutist elders sounds good, but then the viewers flip back to Iraq or basketball. But to the JW, who is sitting there trying to find fault with the statements and unable to, the message conveyed in the broadcast will sink in, and will begin eating him up inside.
In the mind of the JW, there is no room for innuendo, implications, or rationalizations. There is only black and white, good and evil, right and wrong. So, if you are trying to gain an audience there, it is important, as I said on the BB/Silentlambs/CBS thread, to be untouchable.
Your point is well taken and I agree- but sad to say many including myself have seen that for the avg jw, unless they are willing to examine things and most are not --due to being told that to do so is the same as questioning Jah, --recall the dramas on Mummuring--
facts , proof or even correct info rarely moves a jw- esp if they have not read or researched anything on such issues-
for most jw the ablitity to have an open and frank discussion about wt issues are very rare
as an elder the only ones i could dissuss such issue with were fellow bethelites, many local elders would just freak if you brought up such issues, i was truly amazed at how-- the higher the level the person is in the org, esp for males---- the more freely many times issues would be discussed
case in point, my old roommate at bethel is now a Heavy at bethel , he works the service desk and oversees a section of the USA - all the elders, co, pioneers issues are handled by him- he jets around the world
and we have had many open and frank discussion, things he liiterally could get kicked out of bethel for, in fact he has told me that many of the guys in Writing and Service, now full well that many of the teachings are not WRAPPED TOO TIGHT,
but as he told me when i asked "How can you stand before 1000's" he told me WHY BITE THE HAND THAT FEEDS YOU?
THE net is indeed the worst thing the wt has ever had to deal with, for over 100yrs the wt has never had "Worldly" folks read actually letters that only elders were privy to, in fact the avg publisher has NEVER SEEN BOE --letters- yet now the net makes it possible to literally read a lettter dated 5 days ago-
when you read letters like this from the WT - tell me what runs thru your mind??
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/51404/4.ashx SEE THE LETTER FROM THE SOCIETY ON THIS LINK---
it was information like this that caused me to rethink what direction i was going as well as what direction the org is going
you made this comment and it is so true:
. But to the JW, who is sitting there trying to find fault with the statements and unable to, the message conveyed in the broadcast will sink in, and will begin eating him up inside.
the only problem is too many jw pratice what is known as "Double Speak, Double Think"
where one can hold 2 completely and opposite different views on a matter and yet think BOTH ARE STILL CORRECT
It is almost like someone saying they are "A little bit Pregnant"
but welcome to the board and i would highly encourage you and i don't know if you are at this point yet, but ordering Ray Franz book is such an eye opener- the documentation that he provides esp in demostrating how Doctrines are formed and presented to the congregation is simply unreal-
he provides references that you can ck for almost his entire book- esp if you have access to a good wt library
well take care and hope you continue on your journey for knowledge
If you ever want to touchbase OFF LINE and this is what i often encourage folks to do IT IS LESS CHARGED then feel free
Lady "C" my wife and I are in the Washington DC area
or you can reach me on 202-336-8792
I wish my heart could be half as large and half as pure as your own.
I agree. JT, you are the coolest.
You Da Man!!!
Interesting revelations about what goes on behind the scenes at bethel.
Correction: JT = Real Cool. Cool Squared.
Sometimes "going off" on people is the only thing left to do.
But I also understand why you apologized.
For me, it was a relatively short matter of time before I knew the Truth about the Troof. What happened was, I wasn't going to meetings anyway. Being married to a worldly heathen and all. I really disliked the way the close-mindedness of the JWs started to affect my dealings with people in my life.
So, I just kind of drifted away.
Then one day, I stumbled across Obed's old site. Although I'd been using the internet for almost 4 years at that point (1998) I had never thought to look up anything JW related. Apostates, you know.
Once I started reading the errors in doctrine, that was it. I knew the JWs were jacked up socially but now I had incontrovertible proof that their religious doctrine itself is about as far from being Christian as John Ashcroft is from being a Gay Man.
So gcc will hang around and read, I'm sure of it. Then he'll go through the cycle we all have been on.
or whichever steps work for you.
ps...Chester, I'm so glad to see you. Did you get my card?
So gcc will hang around and read, I'm sure of it. Then he'll go through the cycle we all have been on.
that is so true, it is indeed process and for the most part this is what each one of us went thru to some degree- it is an amazing process to watch, many of us have seen it over and over. the person comes here a a dyed in the wool society man/woman and after being subjected to fact after fact, the person then gets that confirmation, that says "I always kinda wondered about that" and then it all starts to fall in place and from there the person is able to grow and move on with their life to some extent
at least they don't have to sell worthless books on a nice summer weekend
Rocketman, Riz and Pops( chester)
just trying to keep it real as Tupac would say- smile